Leica M8: reality check and a modest proposal - Part Deux

OK - back from vacation, through with the holidays. Finally I got time to do some serious editing and

printing. So I now have 15 10"x15" prints to share from my M8. Thumbnails below. I think I've covered

most of the bases regarding lens selections, ISOs, B&W vs. color - even 1 jpeg B&W. No ISO 2500, simply

because I have no need or desire to go there.

 

As I mentioned originally (close to a month ago) if we can set up a mailing list, we can pass these prints

around. And I'll include a CD with TIFF conversions of the .dng originals (plus at least one original .dng for

you to play with).

 

I guess the easiest thing to do is for everyone who wants to be included on the list to email me - you can

get my email by going to my photo.net profile, I believe.

 

DON'T FORGET TO GIVE ME A FULL SNAIL-MAIL MAILING ADDRESS IN THE EMAILS!!

 

I'll build a list based on the emails, and the idea will be for each person to look at the prints, copy any files

they want, and then mail the the package forward to the next person on the list (list will be included in

package).

 

But I'm open to suggestions if anyone has other ideas about how to structure this.

 

Cut-off for requests to be on the list, and for suggestions, will be midnight Friday Jan. 5, 2007 - so I can

actually get it in the mail.

 

Depending on the volume of response, this may be limited to the US and Canada for the time being. We'll

see how things shake out. If it does involve world-wide travel, I may need a volunteer to be the person to

ship the package overseas (i.e last person on the U.S. list).

 

I also reserve the right to substitute one or more prints if I get something I like better in the next week.

 

Anyway - look forward to comments...<div></div>

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the pics they look good but I can't enlarge them to screen size. I would like to

enjoy them larger than the thumbnails you have posted. Thanks again!

Ron: send me an email to be on the mailing list and you can see ACTUAL PRINTS instead of

bigger web jpegs. No cost, except for the postage to pass the prints along to the next in line.

Hi Andy , I would love to see your shots in full size. Would it be possible to copy them to a disc in tiff and send them to me . Of cause I am happy to carry the costs.

Happy new year all Manfred

If the original is not a negative or a paper print, but rather a digital file, then I don't need to see a copy of your prints to judge the quality. I just need a better digital file to download from a website. If you send the prints, then I would partly just be judging how well you had them printed (as well as the original image). I have a nice HP8750 printer at home, so for my purposes what I really need to know is how well I can print a good Leica M8 digital file in either color or b&w. I've just about decided to buy an M8, but I would still like to see what a high quality jpg would look like on my screen in photoshop and then printed on my printer. Would it be possible for you to email us a couple if we simply sent you an email first for you to return to us? Also, did you shoot the b&w images in b&w to begin with, or in color and then converted to b&w in photoshop?

Larry, if Andy shot them as .dng files, then they're raw & therefore were in color (there is no B&W raw file option on the M8).

Keep the ideas coming - if it turns out many folks are happy with just some image files on

disk, we can do it it that way instead, or in addition.

 

I'm on dialup - so it would take 40 minutes to email one .dng file. Let's stick to snail-mail

delivery in any case.

I'm not knocking the shots, they're pretty, bu if they are meant to illustrate unique capabilities of the M8 that make it worth $5000 as opposed to a $500 point-n-shoot, I'm afraid I'm not seeing it, so please enlighten me.

Jerry,

 

So when you see a beautiful Holga photograph, do you ask how that makes it worth $15 instead of a $500 point and shoot?

 

This kind of question, which seems to arise on this forum over and over, of whether Leicas are "worth it" seems completely ridiculous to me. People choose the camera they do for the reasons they do. I choose an M8 (or MP, or whatever) in order to do a particular job in the best way I can with the most comfortable tool I can use. The M8 has a completely different interaction than a point and shoot, and the image quality is vastly different. And we don't need to see Andy's files in order to know that (if you know about sensor size, noise, shutter lag, etc.). Plus the M8 uses Leica lenses, which are tops as most here would agree.

 

But looking at any photo, and I don't care who's it is, and asking is the image capable of proving the camera was "worth it" gets us nowhere, in my opinion...

Hi, Jerry!

 

I wouldn't expect you to see much of anything from these tiny web images (or any web

images) - which is precisely why I want to send around real prints of significant size.

These are just teasers.

 

But you do raise a fair point regarding capabilities, which is why I may substitute some

shots to increase the percentage of low-light, large aperture, high ISO shots.

 

OTOH - the little girl with the purple swirl costume was shot in tungsten light at night - at

1/30 sec. and f/2 @ iso 640. The dusk snow shot was 1/30 @ iso 320 and f/2 with zero

noise visible. The 15mm shots take in a 95-degree angle of view with superb detail right

to the corners. (All of which require a print in the hand to really appreciate - 100% crops

of little bits and pieces won't do the same job).

 

I'd be interested to know which $500 P&S offers noiseless iso 320 and very low-noise iso

640 (without detail-blurring noise suppression processing), f/2.0 lenses out to "120mm"

equivalent, and a super-wide-angle (20mm equivalent) field of view.

 

---

 

The suggestion has been made off-forum that folks who are interested include a

telephone number with their mailing address when they email me, to help coordinate

deliveries as the "package" makes its way along the mailing list. Seems like a good idea.

<i>This kind of question, which seems to arise on this forum over and over, of whether Leicas are "worth it" seems completely ridiculous to me. People choose the camera they do for the reasons they do. I choose an M8 (or MP, or whatever) in order to do a particular job in the best way I can with the most comfortable tool I can use. The M8 has a completely different interaction than a point and shoot, and the image quality is vastly different. And we don't need to see Andy's files in order to know that (if you know about sensor size, noise, shutter lag, etc.). Plus the M8 uses Leica lenses, which are tops as most here would agree.

 

But looking at any photo, and I don't care who's it is, and asking is the image capable of proving the camera was "worth it" gets us nowhere, in my opinion...</i></p>Why all the defensiveness? The guy who started it understood my point. You act like someone called you a feisty guy wondering why a $5000 camera won't automatically take a great photo :wink:

Maybe not enough coffee...but I still think my points are valid, as were the specifics in Andy's reply...now pass the cream and sugar (he said defensively...).

Hi, again, Jerry. At least you got me off my behind to try a little low-light work tonight!

 

HAP-pee New Year!<div></div>

Color shots at iso 1250 with the M8 seem unusable. Is there software upgrades planned to address that issue? In B&W mode the shots have an interesting grainy character to them. The noise at iso 1250 is just horrible in almost all test shots I have seen.

 

Happy New Year!

Hi, Stephen

 

Maybe this should be a thread of its own, but...

 

"Color shots at iso 1250 with the M8 seem unusable." I guess I have to ask, compared to

what? ISO 1250 color film (slides or negs)? Canon 5D? Canon 1D? Nikon D2x? JPEG or

DNG? Under full spectrum light (daylight)? Or light very limited in blue wavelengths

(sodium, tungsten, etc.)?

 

Personally, I have not seen ANY capture method, digital or film, above ISO 1000 that

handles color well, especially if the light is short on blue wavelengths. I wouldn't call them

"unuseable" since obviously some people use them. I certainly find that the M8 at 1250

delivers more manageable color and grain/noise than, say, 400 slide film pushed 2 stops.

But at some point there is just no technological substitute for putting real photons onto

the sensor (i.e. lower isos, larger apertures, longer exposures).

 

"More light" as Goethe said on his death-bed.

 

"Is there software upgrades planned to address that issue?" Not sure software will solve

anything - especially for RAW shooting. At best one could crank up the detail-robbing

noise-reduction in jpeg captures.

For those who still don't get it yet: All, that all, my Leica gear from M6 TTL to every lens I've ever bought are worth more today than when I paid for them. It's not consumption, as with almost all other photo gear, especially the new 1-year lifespan digital gear. It's an investment in the highest quality photo gear ever made. I plan to pass all of it on to my son some day. Secondly, this means that the M8 should only be compared to the M7 and M7 film Leicas, to to Canon and Nikon SLR cameras. Leica users all know this, it's those who are deciding which system to buy into that have to do that kind of comparison. I have Nikon SLR film gear, but I can barely stand to use it now simply because I prefer a simpler range finder camera like my Leica M6 now. I'd consider getting a Panasonic Lumix 50, but just for the 400mm zoom possibilities, not as a replace for the 28-75mm Leica photograpy. So enough about cost. The M8 is fully in line price-wise with the M7 and M8. The question is whether or not the quality of the print matches the M6/M7 film-based quality.

Thanks for this Andy, I am sending you my info via email. This will really help with the decision to get the camera or not.

Larry,

 

You post makes some sense except the M8 will be obsolete when the M9 comes out. The digital age has made the life spans of camera very very short. Therefore, having a digital camera as an investment is a bad idea.

 

On a side note:

I am comparing the Iso 1250 to other pro digital camera systems. The iso 1250 is better than film at that iso for sure. I guess un-usable was too harsh because it depends on what your uses entail. How about not asthetically pleasing at iso 1250.

 

Regards,

Steve

Andy,

 

Could you create an M8 folder in PN and start posting these images? Let us sample them, please.

Impressive! Received the packet today and very much enjoyed going through the photos. Good blend of different subjects, ISO settings, lighting conditions, etc.

 

In terms of image quality, my reaction to the photos is very favorable. The M8 seems up to the challenge of good glass. Commenting on just a few:

"Mayan Dancer" - great detail in the feathers framing the face as well as the hair. Smooth bokeh as well. (I like your use of a 28mm lens for a tightly framed portait - works well here.)

"Going Ashore" - fun exploring the fine features: the tenders/boats by the QM2, the buildings on the shore. not at all bad performance by the Heliar 15.

"Tender Alongside" - stunning color and detail, and one of my favorite images here.

"Jon" (bw) - creamy yet crisp, with very nice oof. the transition on Jon's left vest shoulder is great. would love to see what an old lens, like a summarit, looks like painting this.

"Snowstorm" - one of our (my wife's and mine) favorite images. good control of the contrast in the light sources, and the detail if you're pixel-peeping the branches is very credible, especially for a 28.

The high ISO images ("Engine 15", "New Years") hold up well - the noise is there if you're looking, but is not excessive. I have the feeling that it wouldn't take a heavy hand to fix things. And in b&w ("New Years" b&w version) the noise looks very natural, so I suspect that the noise is fairly benign. (Noticed that the shadow detail in the b&w version is significantly crisper and enhanced over the color version: not sure if this reflects tweaking on your part or the method of deriving b&w (lab space? a specific RGB channel?).)

 

All in all, a GAS-inducing process - I think the M8 is a worthy member of the family, judging from these. Lots of good images, and I appreciate your generosity in time and cost in sharing these with us, Andy! I intend to forward this to the next lucky recipient tomorrow, unless the weather here in Seattle does another number on us.

 

waldemar