Should I Cancel My M8 Order?

The IR/Magenta issue seems very serious. You will never know when it will occur and certainly every wedding photographer will fear the sight of a black Tux. The head of Leica USA's statement was pretty digraceful. Not only telling people the will have to get IR block filters for every lens, not only that firmware upgrades will only work with coded lenses (so forget older ones that they dont code and other brands) but his attempt to spin it all to say that using these filters is great idea.

 

I would cancel. I have no doubt they will sort the problem out for cameras they may build in the future, but I doubt that they will offer a recall to all M8's so far made and replace the sensor glass. This isnt a small issue here this is one major flaw. Cancel and wait to see what their response will be. They may never come up with any better solution than screw on filters that you will most likely have to pay for yourself.

 

I have always believed you should never buy the first batch of anything electronic from Leica but certainy wasnt expecting this.

Vinay's right. Fixing this in Photoshop is not an easy fix. If the magenta color cast were in the overall image, then a simple curves adjustment will do the trick and you could write a Photoshop Action. But look carefully at Marc's (and other's) photos. The color cast is selective. To fix it, you'll have to individually mask/select the affected regions, which will take some skill, and then color correct. And if you shoot in high volume on assignments, you're looking at an unacceptably high increase in post-production work.

Let's hope they fix it properly, and fairly soon. I want somebody around who can fix

the electronics on my M7 if need be. DAG or Sherry can't do it. Hopefully a week or

two from now we'll be praising Leica for fixing the problem. Maybe it's taking time

for them to regroup and figure their next move.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

Vinay, sorry I hadn't seen the photos, just read descriptions. I spoke too soon. The problems are hilariously bad. Wow.

I think the rational choice is to cancel the order. Few reasons:

 

1) Leica's effort to fix the M8 depends on overall order status. I am positive that they will get it fixed eventually, but a large rate of order cancellation should make Leica work out the best solution that is most benefitial to the customers - the brand is at stake here. If, on the other hand, many orders remain in place, Leica will perceive the problem to be minor, and offer a compromising solution.

 

2) If you get your M8 and the solution turns out to be hardware (sensor) replacement, you will probably be without the camera for some time anyways.

 

3) In the unlikely case that the problem will never be fixed (low probability is attached to this risk but not zero), the value of the Leica brand and its products will suffer.

 

It might turn out that the problem can be fixed painlessly with a firmware update (and the early owners claiming 'told ya'), but they took irrational, unnecessary and avoidable risks. Unless your living absolutely hinges on having the M8, there is nothing to gain in buying one doubtfully.

1, 2 and 3: bingo!

<I>It might turn out that the problem can be fixed painlessly with a firmware update...

</I><P>

 

And I might discover a method for turning lead into gold. News at 11...

Personaly I would wait why would you want to take delivery of something that does not function correctly only to have to send it back for fixing. To look on the bright side at least the problems have be found now and are not something that pops up a year or so down the line.

I haven't owned a Leica in many years, but I have a real appreciation for the brand. I'd been entertaining the thought of buying an M8, but I have to tell you that at this point I'm starting to fear that it may be a terminally flawed product, not unlike the Kodak 14n or SLR/n. From everything I've read and seen, here and elsewhere, it looks like there are just too many issues to sort out, and that at least some of them are fundamental to the design of the camera. I take no joy in these observations.

<i>Brad - "... And I might discover a method for turning lead into gold. News at 11... ..."</i>

<p>You're too late, it's already been done. The method is called Microsoft.

>>>However, Sean Reid and Luminous Landscapes both agreed that Leica had scored a bulls eye with the M8, so I placed an order.

<p><p>

Oh, btw, you forgot to ask them how much they were paid by .... :)

<p><p>

I have also read that if Luminous Landscapes were to pay for all of the equipment they have reviewed, the amount came up to be more than $1 million. Hmmm ... I see these possible:

<li>he came from a really rich family

<li>the website is scooping in lots of $$$ or

<li>the vendors are paying him to review the equipment

<p><p>

Go figure, Gary ...

Arthur, call me simple minded but I believe that both LL and Sean Reid are

just enthusiastic photographers who state their impressions honestly enough.

This is a situation where the circumstances that cause the problem simply

weren't covered within their evaluation. So be it, after all neither offered a

guarantee.

 

If there's a villain in all this I'd point the finger at Leica. Either they didn't spot it,

in which case they're inept, or they did know but hoped they could get away

with it, in which case they're both inept and unscrupulous.

<i>If there's a villain in all this I'd point the finger at Leica. Either they didn't spot it, in which case they're inept, or they did know but hoped they could get away with it, in which case they're both inept and unscrupulous.</i><p>

Is it also not possible that the manufacturer (a contractor) messed up and Leica is struggling to deal with that issue right now? I would think they have some recour$e in that case and could use the money to fix the sold cameras. But if the problem is due to Leica's design (the .5mm filter), then Gads! How could they go that far and not know what's up!

I would cancel if I were you. Of course no one would buy a single roll of color film that rendered certain black objects as purple and others as black <i>depending on what the objects are made of</i>, so I don't think it makes sense to buy into that problem to the tune of $5000.<p>

 

From <a href="http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8937-official-leica-statements.html#post87924"> Leica's own account</a> the problem arises from the IR sensitivity characteristics of the sensor and the associated cover that functions as an IR barrier filter. I cannot imagine that there can be a firmware or a software fix for this problem or that it matters whether you shoot in RAW or shoot JPEGs. The sensor is recording wrong information. It's a GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) problem and there is no programmable solution for those. <p>

 

If I sometimes hit "4" instead of "5" when entering numbers on a calculator, the results will be wrong. You can't fix that by reprogramming the calculator.<p>

 

The filter "solution" is a crude workaround, and probably marks the first time Leica has recommended adding clear glass in front its lenses.

If a contractor had provided an out-of-spec component, Leica would have been wise to model its response on this announcement:<blockquote>2006-06-01: <b>Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM - Series production on halt due to sudden shortage of useable parts</b>

 

Series production of the Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM lens for the Zeiss Ikon rangefinder camera had to be halted after a complete lot of parts had unexpectedly proven out of specification and therefore unusable. We will do our best to continue production of the Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM and will inform about further availability of this super wide angle lens as soon as possible. </blockquote>

I can't believe Leica missed this in testing.

 

This is right up there with spiked Tylenol.

 

The Leica USA statement is unbelievably insulting. How could anybody take delivery of a product this fundamentally flawed?

 

Is the solution not a redesign of the sensor cover? If Leica can do this and offer to fix every M8 sold, they can salvage the product. They must realize their credibility is at stake.

I agree with Frederick. Leicas official position is pathetic and insulting. The person who made that decision should be canned immediately. If they sell you a bad camera they should fix the problem offer to refund the purchase price or give some extended warranty or time period to return the bad camera for refund or exchange. Anything but what they did. What ever happened to "I'm sorry sir, you should never have received a faulty product - I'll fix that immediately" Have they no shame?

 

Now as to the reviewer's gushing over the M8, I can see that if they got good cameras they might be justified in gushing. Not all the cameras have problems as far as I know. Did they get lucky? Who knows?

The image a camera makes is the sum total of its reason for existing!

 

Rationalization: "to devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for one's behavior."

 

A fool and his money are soon parted.

 

Need anyone say more?

 

Tom/

How long has this camera been out? Two weeks now?

 

I work on all different types of cars for a living at a very busy repair facility. One thing that I have learned over the years has been that with any car or truck, the first model year usually has more recalls and "problems" than subsequent model years. Some just always have problems. It is just the way it is. I say give Leica a chance to fix the issues, go out and shoot some shots and quit griping on the internet. The only people who really have a gripe are the ones who either have the camera and are experiencing the problem or are on the waiting list to pick one up soon. People who don't have a deposit down and aren't planning on buying the camera at all are merely bashing, plain and simple. It would be like Al going to the Nikon forum and complaining about the D200 banding issue or over to the Canon forum and complaining about how sh*tty their reds look. I say chill out and see what Leica does about the issue. The DMR came out cool, right? Why won't the M8? I do believe Leica will fix the issues, the world will continue to spin the sun will be up in the morning.

 

Also, this whole idea that the amount of money you spend on a mechanical device somehow stops problems that might occur is simpleminded. I can't tell you how many 50k vehicles come in the shop with the same problems that a 15k coupe has. Anything mechanical can malfunction, its a fact that has nothing to do with how much you spent on it. What counts is the service after the malfunction.

 

Anyway Gary, I say you delay your order for a few months until Leica fixes the problems if you are having reservations. That way you will feel much better about the purchase and have the ability to scrutinize through all the banter on the internet what Leica is actually doing to fix the issues.

 

End of Rant, signing off, see ya later, be cool.

"every camera has issues and these issues are really minor....Get your cameranad enjoy it.

The Reid and Luminous reviews were awesome and independent"

 

Firstly, these "issues" are not remotely "minor" - if they can't be resolved (and an on-lens

filter is not resolution) then the camera, in it's current form, has no future. Secondly, to

place so much faith in the views of online reviewers is naive at best - I'd no more trust the

Luminous Landscape guy's assessment of the M8 than I would his previous assertions that

the Canon D30 gave "better" results than medium

format film.

All is not lost. I've just received word that the entire production of the M8 is being recalled,

re-upholstered in fetching purple velvet, renamed the M5D, and marketed towards the

Doctor 'n' Dentist set. The fully functional and full frame M9 will be available to

photographers last-quarter 2010.

But you have to help Leica through thick and thin! Their sturdily built cameras have been

there for you haven't they?

"But you have to help Leica through thick and thin! Their sturdily built cameras have been there for you haven't they?"

 

I like Leica, and will order an M8 once the problem is resolved in normal production. You can never 'help' a company by buying their bad products just because you are a loyal customer. Quite the contrary, bailing out a bad product (protectionist actions) will hurt both you and the company. The only way to help Leica is by continuing to demand better products from them, making them increasingly competitive. Leica is not for the mass market, but you can never underestimate the number of potential Leica customers who are currently using Canon and Nikon.

> The DMR came out cool, right?

 

who knows for sure? perhaps the engineering and QA groups never took photos of tuxedos or black-cats?