5D; no on-board flash - inconvenient?

There is much information I have gotten about the 20D; 30D and 5D, out of which one model

I will be choosing as the one camera I will use for quite some time. (My present camera is an

Olympus that I have been using for close to six years) One hurdle to decide about the 5D is

lack of a pop-up flash. Has this become a major or minor inconvenience when using this

camera? Has it been nettlesome to always be aware of where your separate flash unit is; to

remember to bring it and to have the batteries ready. How about missed opportunities due to

needing flash and there is none around? I can envision my Rebel XT-owning sister heckling

me that I paid X-amount more than she did for her camera and that "my camera didn�t even

come with a pop-up flash."

Since the flash on Canon's cannot function as a remote flash commander, I don't see any reason to have a popup flash that I won't use anyways (Underpowered, too close to lens axis and gets blocked by lens/hood).

On the 5D quality is so high at iso 1600 that flash is almost always not necessary for portrait and indoor shooting. When you do need flash you need a lot less of it. This, plus the snappy bright view finder is a significant advantage for the 5D over almost all other cameras.

Savas - if you are considering the 5D, and the lack of a built-in flash is a problem, then I say that you need to REALLY think why you are considering the 5D. Did you come up with the idea of the 5D, or did a salesperson do it for you?

 

If you are that serious about photography to plunk down $2500+ for a 5D, then you can afford a separate flash - either a $20 sunpak 333 or a $350 Canon 580EX.

 

Any reluctance to not purchase the 5D b/c it doesn't have a built in flash suggests that don't really know what you looking for. Keep researching and shooting and you will find a way.

 

Also - I'm not sure if your sister reference is a joke, but again, if you are really concerned about how your 5D might compared to her XT, you need to find another expensive hobby. Cameras make for poor status items IMHO, and if you care what someone else would say about your camera, you aren't ready to own the 5D.

 

Conrad

Just to sort of echo everyone else, anyone considering a purchasing a 5D isn't the type of photographer who would be using a pop-up flash. If you want something with better results and a more pro-feel than the Rebel XT, consider a 20D.

Definitely try out some camera's before buying.

It is just a small problem. I have the EOS 3 which does not have a built in flash. I have a 220EX because it is small and also works with my D30. I just sold my 550EX and will soon have a 580EX for the big jobs. Don't worry about it, it's just an annoyance. You can also get a 420EX or a 430 EX or an EX-compatible uniot from Metz or Sigma or whoever.

So, other than Conrads soapbox dissertation and broad, incorrect assumptions peppered

with sarcasm and innuendo, I am learning a few things from others. Conrad, get a grip.

 

I am learning that on-board flash is underpowered and will in fact be blocked from my lens

and hood. I also learned that the high iso can more than make up for the lack of flash for

certain indoor applications and is in fact sought after. What, then, would be proper speed

lens I should be looking at so that I will have sufficient exposure indoors under low light?

Other than which I will need to afix my 580EX? Currently, I have a f/4 zoom, 24-105. Should I

be looking at 2.8 or 1.4?

I have never EVER seen a good photograph made with a pop-up flash. I'd much rather suffer the increased noise from using a high ISO than use a built-in flash which invariably renders the scene as if it were shot with an Instamatic. But, i'm a snob. YMMV, as the kids say.

I have never been able to capably hand-hold my Olympus E-10 indoors under natural light

and obtain reasonable sharpness. It�s shutter range is 2 seconds to 1/640th. It�s highest iso

is 400. Apparently, I�ve been running a three-legged race and don�t quite comprehend what

today�s technology is allowing people to do.

You?ve a problem with your text encoding.

 

BTW, no professional level Canon or Nikon has had a built in flash.

 

I'm sure you have a better reason for choosing the 5D than one-upping your sister. I can

only imagine your attempt to one-up her if she gets pregnant!

Savas - I may have been on a soapbox, but my advice to you would be the same as to my own family. If you have the $$ for a 5D, but are worried about not having a built in flash, then your photography is not at a level where you need the 5D in the first place! The built in flash is a convenience, and I dont' think that any strong photographers would ever say that their built in flashes are useful.

 

Again, something like a Dig Reb XT would be a better use of your money, IMHO. But it's your money, not mine.

 

Yes, I may be making some incorrect assumptions, but there is no sarcasm implied, and certainly innuendo. I guess the internet just doesn't convey the tone of how you are speaking. I'm speaking with a smile :-)

My Speedlite is always in my camera bag whenever I take an EOS SLR out. I can only recall having used a popup flash once - to provide fill for a grab shot when I didn't have time to mount it. Just as well only fill was required, because lens shadow would have been very evident if it had been an indoor shot (I framed the shot so the "shadow" fell on the background, and so wasn't noticeable). A proper flash allows much more flexibility to produce well lit shots by taking advantage of bounce, diffusers, and off shoe positioning, worthy of the tool that the 5D is. A popup is akin to lighting a room with a bare bulb hanging from the ceiling - it provides light, and might be acceptable for something with news value - but in that market, phonecam shots will do.

Thanks for the thought provoking responses. People are generous here. And Conrad, I

respect you and every other experienced lensman and lenswoman on the board. I am not

rich, a poseur nor seeking one-upsmanship. I am an artist for most of my adult life and

make an okay living in the field of graphics. And yes, my sister and her wonderful Rebel

photographic results (along with a tart tongue) are what got me to thinking about what I

have been shooting with and what I have been missing. It is a collective development in

the field to which members here have kept themselves abreast of. I might have answered

my own question when stating the specs on my current camera gear. I shot occasionally

indoors without flash for the past six years with a six year old camera, the iso of which is

only 400. The fastest shutter speed is 1/640. Results have always been abysmally soft. I

am learning that what is avaiilable today is heads and shoulders above that in capability.

But having pop-up flash is handy. You might need fill-in flash once in a while. So that

translates into perpetually having a flash unit with you, ready to pop that thing on

instantly. Nevertheless, each choice comes with its own set of tradeoffs. I am looking at

the flash inquiry as the last in a set of decisions I have already made and which had

remained as the lone nettlesome thing to be clarified.

A similar discussion recently popped up (no pun intended) on another message board. The consensus from those with experience seemed to be that the 220EX is an excellent, lightweight means of having fill-flash when you need it, and that it's more versatile than a pop-up flash.

Conrad's answer may have been a bit harsh, but it sounds right to me, as I'll explain below:

 

To answer your original question: I can only assume from your question that budget for the 5D isn't an issue; therefore neither is a little extra for an external flash. I always keep one in the bag with me, the batteries last forever though I always have a charged spare set. It's a little bulkier, heavier, more fragile in tight quarters. If something quick happens where you just can't get the flash in time, the 5D (and 20D/30D) work great at high ISOs like 1600.

 

All in all the external flash is a minor inconvenience, made up for by the superior results. If you just want close-up fill flash for dark rooms, not fast sports action or weddings, anything at all will suffice, even a little 220EX (small enough not to be an inconvenience). Since budget isn't an issue, why not go for it? It's a great camera and fun to use and plenty of upside potential as you get better. It may rankle some here who don't have that kind of budget, but that's not your problem.

 

However: if budget is an issue, from your post I think you'd be better served putting money elsewhere - get an XT or 20D and spend the difference on fine lenses, advanced photo and post-processing training (ie books, seminars, classes), trips to places worth photographing, etc. Identify the weakest link in your photography and attack that first for the wisest use of your money; I doubt it's the differences between the 5D and 20D that would be limiting your potential. That holds even if you can afford it and end up with a 5D.

Andy, I much appreciate the heads up. I am learning everyday and it is ongoing. I didn�t

realize I would tick Conrad off with my question, although he claims to be smiling and I

accept that. It is interesting to pose a question and see how people comprehend and run

with it. There are a few responses here that simply answer the question and for that I am

thankful. Other responses question me, my intentions and experience. For those, it seems

if you have to ask about pop-up flash on a 5D, then

1.) you are a rank beginner and don�t deserve one

2.) made worse that you might afford one, when some experienced photogs cannot

3.) Are a poseur who wants to carry around a 5D as a status symbol

4.) Have a need to one-up a sibling

I find the built-in flash on my 20D very useful. It works very well as a daylight fill-in flash where you don't need a lot of power,and not worried about red eyes. I use it very often and in P mode it fills the shadow areas very nicely, automatically. It is pretty useless at night though, other than to privide focussing light.

>>One hurdle to decide about the 5D is lack of a pop-up flash<<

 

Others are very much correct in saying you need to find out what YOU need first.

Savas - please make no mistake about this - I was not ticked off at all.

 

In fact, I rarely get angry by anything anyone says on these forums. I was concerned for your choice of camera and thought that you might be posting a few weeks ago 'Help me with my 5D - can't figure out'.

 

Case in point - I have a photography student who purchased the 5D three weeks ago and a set of continuous/hot lights. He has no idea what he is doing technically. He shoots on P mode, and although his work is nice compositionally, he doesn't know how to reproduce what he did yesterday. He just sets it on P.

 

It just seems strange to me that you would buy a 5D, and be concerned about toting a 580EX around. the 5D can produce remarkably high quality images, and part of that is bringing the necessary gear with it when you don't have good ambient lighting.

I almost never bother with full-sized flashes because I don't like the look of flash pictures, but I do use the pop-up all the time. It's no good for lighting a scene, but it's just what one needs for fill-in and highlights in the eyes. I think the omissions of a pop-up on the 5D is a significant shortcoming.

 

However, inconvenient as it may be, I think this shouldn't be the deciding factor. The real difference between the 20D/5D is sensor size. If money or weight are no object, go for the 5D. The 5D is also the better choice if you're going to be using primes most of the time. Otherwise, consider the 20D or the XT (the XT is a nice body and gives you the same image quality as the 20D).

Savas, all we have to do is click on your name, and we find that in your very first post from a month ago, you describe yourself as a complete newbie. So try not to be upset when we make the same conclusion here. Just trying to help.

<b><big>What a bunch of snobbish hooey</b></big><p>

While there is a fair amount of statements that I agree with in this thread. . . .there is a fair amount of malarky as well.

<p>

First and foremost -> I fail to recognize what makes the 5D a <i>pro</i> grade camera. In my mind, it has only two features that say <i>pro</i> grade.

<p>

(1) A $3000 price tag.

<p>(2) Lack of pop up flash.<p>

The camera lacks the weather sealing, built in grip, and 45 pt AF system of the "1" series cameras. In fact. . .the 5D has an almost identical feature set to the new 30D prosumer camera. If you look in the "film" lineup. . .I would say the closest model to the 5D is the Elan 7n. A $350 body, last I looked.

<p>

So. . .that said. . .why does one want the 5D? <i>12mp</i> is nice. . .but there are dozens of posts this week explaining why 8mp of the 20D/30D/XT is just fine. . and any more is a waste. (I do not share this view).

<P>

<i>Full frame</i> is also nice. In fact, Full Frame sensor and lack of pop up flash are the only real features that distinguish this camera from the new 30D (which costs half as much). So what is so special about full frame? According to DPreview, aside from image resolution (the 12mp thing), image quality is nearly identical to the 20D/30D. The <b>only</b> advantage of full frame is the shallower DOF possible because you use longer lenses to achieve the same shots. Is that what makes this a "pro" camera?

<p>

In terms of the pop-up flash: True -> It is weak. True -> It fires straight ahead and can't be bounced. True -> It lacks a high sync mode. BUT. . .on my 10D it is there when I need it. Suuurrre. 95% of my flash shots are taken with a hot-shoe flash. For the other 5%. . .I use the pop up. Sometimes, I take out the flash and put in a few more lenses (and got caught needing a fill flash!)

<p>

Given the choice of (a) no popup and (b) popup, I will pick POP-UP flash every time. In fact, given the choice of "spot meter" and "pop-up", I still pick "Pop up"! Why? Because as I said. . .sometimes I don't have a flash unit with me. Popup flash is a tool that has it's place.

<p>

Don't get me wrong.. .as I said most of my pictures are with hot-shoe flashes. In fact. .. I sometimes bring two flashes along with a ST-E2 to improve the results.

<p>

Have I ever been caught without a flash? Yup.

<p>

Have I ever been caught with a flash and dead batteries? Ummm. Yes and no. I always have two sets of batteries. One set ALWAYS works. The only time I get hosed is if I wanted to use TWO flashes simultaneously (and one set is dead!). Sometimes, when I put two flashes in the bag, I also put in a charger (just in case).

<p>

Honestly. . the feature *I* want to see is not only "pop up flash", but "Pop up flash with High speed sync".

<p>Personally. . .I think the only reason the 5D lacks a pop up flash is a simple marketing cost savings measure. Canon feels that anyone shelling out a $1800 premium (over a 20D) to get a 5D won't balk at lack of a pop up flash. And yeah. . .probably already will be using a hot shoe flash.

<p>Personally, the only reason a spot meter was put on the 30D was because Nikon cameras have one. . .and 20D sales are starting to be a bit soft (but not soft enough to put in an expensive new sensor!)

<p>

</rant> Your milage may vary.

A popup flash can be used, in an inconspicuous way, to provide fill-in flash. Of course, so

can a Speedlite. Quite a lot of images can benefit from this and it's a useful technique, so

if you do get the 5D it might well be a good idea to get an external flash as well. It's up to

you to decide how inconvenient using an external flash is, compared with a pop-up unit.

 

Over in Nikon-land, the pop-up flash on a D70, D70s or D200 can be used as the

commanding flash gun for external flash units mounted off-camera, even quite a distance

away. However, in practice not many photographers actually make serious use of this

feature, neat though it undoubtedly is. Not having it on a 5D probably won't be a

significant loss, I would have thought.

Not about 5D, but about film EOS 3 - it also doesn't have flash. When I bought that camera I also thought it's big disadvantage, so I bought a flash. Turned out the flash was longest living inhabitant of my photobag who didn't see the light for over 3 years. Yes, all these times I had it with me, but turned out I didn't need it with that kind of shooting that I had.

 

Now have 20D with flash, it has flash. Do I use it? Seldom. Do I like it? Not really - small, direct. So what's the point? Unfortunately my old Sunpack flash doesn't work with 20D, so I'm fiddling with idea of buying yet another external flash, this time for surely Canon and probably top of the line (so I can use it also together with my two studio strobes).

 

If your budget enough for 5D and you really know why you need that camera, then lack of flash shouldn't stop you - you'll get one when you need it. Think that you'll have access to much more affordable wide angle lenses - you'd pay only 400-500 EUR to get decent 20mm lens compare to fortune for equivalent focal length for croped factor cameras! Thinking that crop factor will give you more of the tele? Forget it - you can just as well crop from 5D image and get the same 8Mpix as from 20D/30D sensor. If money isn't objection I'd get 5D just the same as I got EOS 3 and not EOS 30 in its days.

I should have clarified - complete newbie as to Canon EOS. Am I a pro? No. But I have been

shooting for a while. The learning continues. As I mentioned, a question is static. People

bring to it what they will. At least the question did not go ignored. For that, I am thankful.