Why Ebony

Now, to sum up and address the original question, I think there is no doubt that the choice of materials, both ebony and titanium come at a price that will add to the cost of these cameras. Also, as the links in the chain from manufacturer to consumer each will multiply this with something, it adds up to a significant increase in price over the cheaper-build Shen-Hao or Tachiharas.<p>

Secondly, labour cost is expensive in Japan, and again, this higher cost compared to having it made in China to the same standards - and multiplied with whatever the wholesalers or retailers add onto it - again adds a significant bit to the total cost.<p>

A high quality standard in production means extra production time, which again means higher labour costs. Machinining titanium and such a dense wood as ebony requires different tools and more time than many other materials would, again adding to the sum.<p>

 

A small production costs more than a large production, since the administrative costs will be divided among fewer units and there will be less room for economising with larger bulk purchases of materials and larger bulk shipments of finished goods.<p>

Lastly, but one dimension that is very hard to quantify unless you're actually somewhere in the loop from production to consumer and have seen the numbers, is to what extent the price is higher as a calculated approach to the actual demand for the cameras. If production is limited and the current price means all cameras made are sold, the price is about right from a business managmenet perspective. If there is a waiting list, the price might even be turned up a bit higher, and if lots of cameras are stuck in storage, turning the price down might make more money, even if it means less made per unit, or production has to be downscaled accordingly.<p>

A whole other question, and one which we've seen above yields different answers depending on who you're asking, is whether it is worth the higher price compared to the budget options. There are many photographic tools that do the same job, and when it comes to taking pictures with large format cameras where the camera is "just" something you put between the lens and the film, it all comes down to what each individual photographer is most comfortable with - both when it comes to economy and workflow.<p>

For those with a workflow involving a large volume of shots taken, it becomes more important to choose a camera that is optimal for the way they work - regardless of price - that has the features they need to do the work they wish, and if those features come together in an Ebony, then that is the camera to get. For someone else, even a Speed Graphic might do.

Why is Linhof more expensive than Horseman? If Scott is right, labour cost in Japan is higher than in Germany.

 

Quality costs money, and each small additional bit of quality costs much more than the previous. Also, a brand has a lot of 'value' that raises the price, sometimes significantly, over the pure cost of materials and labour.

Have anyone ever sat down and just considered that the pricing structure of Ebony's cameras are just plain exhorbitant solely for the sake of sheering the customer for every dollar they possibly can? All the above excuses/reasons given may be true to justify this pricing policy (the extra design expenses and Japanese labor etc.), but to what extent this may be true is perhaps an exaggeration. I'm in the LF business and am acutely aware that two very well known wooden LF makers pricing structures give some of the worse markups (by a wide margin) in the industry to their dealers. These companies are Ebony and Shen-Hao. IMO.. Ebony sticks it to two folks real bad every time an Ebony camera is sold, first they stick it to the customer with extremely high prices and on the other hand they stick it to the dealer with extremely low markups.... almost not worth carrying the line for a retailer.Dealers that carry Ebony (not many of them...have you noticed???) don't like to take Visa/MC as the credit card charges eat up most of the miniscule profits. If I told you what the markup is (I will not tell you) you would laugh...in relation to the prices they charge that is. Believe me...dealers are not the folks making the big money on the expensive Ebony cameras, not even close. Shen-Hao on the other hand just sticks it real hard to their dealers with the same extremely low markups but at least they give their customers a break with low, low prices. Like I said, I'm in the business and these guys don't exactly play generous. They make Wisner and Lotus and others look like angels in comparison. That said I do like the Ebony and Shen-Hao cameras and think they are good machines for what they are intended, but make no mistake about this... there is a certain level of let us say..."dollar gathering"....that is really quite out of line with respect. At least with Ebony you get a very nice tool with great service. But you really pay up the gazoo for it. Is their much to like about these cameras...yes, absolutely! Is there much to like about their commercial ethics? This is another subject entirely. But customers flock to these companies and buy their products so this is the bottom line.

<p>Book recommendation for you, Emile:

 

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0517548232/002-2872433-4309611?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance"><i>Economics in One Lesson</i> by Hazlitt</a> and

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226264211/104-3380504-9132724?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance"><i>Capitalism and Freedom</i> by Friedman</a>.</p>

A real life business model: In the beginning I buy "one" Ebony LF camera setup from Badger Graphics. I continue to purchase over the next two years: three Rodenstock lenses, an additional $3,500 Cooke lens (in 2006), 120 film magazines for the Ebony, plus 120 and LF films and supplies about every month. The economics of this situation is that Badger has my business because they can deliver most if not all my LF needs. Heck they even handled a speedy modification from the US to Japan in two weeks! I am sure the margins on some items are low and I learned in college that when you sell for a living, it is the repeat business that makes you money. BTW, I always pay with a corporate American Express card and they have never said anything except "thank you".

Ebony and Shen Hao are still subject to the laws of supply and demand. They can command relatively high prices and low dealer markups only if the market will bear it. And if the market will bear it (as has been the case), why shouldn't they charge high prices? All of the LF companies are tiny by corporate standards, so nobody is getting hugely rich selling LF cameras. They should charge what they can get.

 

There are enough alternatives in the LF market so that no one is gouging customers. I think we should evaluate cameras based on a price-performance, quality and customer support, not on whether we think companies have gotten a bit too greedy with their pricing strategies.

Bingo!

"I'm in the LF business " said Emile and ther emay be others here equally well informed

that can answer this question:

 

How many Ebony cameras are produced each week and by how many people ?

 

Four years ago Robert White was selling one a week for a period, now I believe it is far

less. I imagine that the Ebony team is small but still requires an substantial input to meet

wages and overheads.

 

One competitor, Gandolfi, is now a one man outfit and the business never provided the

owners the owners the lavish lifestyle that the heads of the Nikon and Canon camera

divisions enjoy. I for one, enjoy owning their crafted poduct, as I'm sure I would any of the

other leading makes. Long may they avoid the threats of smaller markets, rising costs,

and exchange rate fluctuations to continue to support our activities.

Let's, um, shrink the question and move it away from LF cameras to reduce the risk of emotional responses from those who've invested in one LF camera or another.

 

Why are new Leicas and Leica brand lenses for them so expensive? And why does Leica Camera continue to raise prices?

 

For the armchair economists among us, are LF cameras a commodity or are the products differentiated enough to give manufacturers some monopoly power?

OK, as an "armchair economist" (I have an economics degree, but admit to spending a fair amount of time in armchairs and sofas these days), IMHO the LF market is too small to be truly commoditized compared to, say, the personal computer industry. As a result, entry-level vendors such a Shen-Hao, Tachihara, etc. can charge a bit more than they otherwise could, and there is more of a price spread between low-end and high-end products than would otherwise be the case. I think these characteristics are part of what irritates Emile.

 

But while companies like Ebony clearly wield pricing power, they do not have a monopoly (or even an oligopoly). There are enough LF companies around to keep pricing fairly competitive. Part of the reason Ebony gets away with charging so much is the nature of the market. Amateurs buying field cameras now dominate LF, and here in the U.S. there are quite a few retiring baby boomers with disposable income to lavish on their hobbies. Such folks who purchase a Mercedes, BMW or Lexus are not going to fret over a few thousands dollars more for a camera. An example: last year when I was shopping for an 8x10 camera, I asked Jim Andracki (Midwest Photo) why anyone on earth would purchase a new Ebony SV810UE (around $8700 now, more than that then). He actually has sold a number of them, and he told me a common customer response was "Because I always wanted one." And if you look at Midwest's current inventory (and my experience with Badger has been similar), they are virtually out of Ebony cameras. These cameras sell as fast as they come in.

 

And I think the rest of the industry is enjoying a similar status. Dick Phillips sells as many cameras as he chooses to make. Bruce Wehman is reportedly backlogged on his 8x10 camera. Keith Canham is reportedly working near capacity. There appears to be healthy demand right now within our tiny niche market. And that is a good thing!

Wow!. This has been quite a discussion. So to sum up, it seems that the high cost of an Ebony is due to several factors: raw matererials that are more expensive (Ebony and titanium), high fixed cost versus low production volume, and the perceived value/prestige factor. Also, like every other product, the price/perfomance ratio is not linear, and there is are diminishing marginal returns.

 

Since we're all enjoying this discussion, I'd like to post these follow-up questions. For someone like me who a) doesn't have unlimited funds, but b) is willing to pay more for quality, and c) appreciates and will pay for craftsmanship, where is the sweet spot?

 

To put it into more practical terms, I'd like a field camera that will handle a wide (90mm) lens with some movements, and has rear shift (I like to do pseudo panoramics with imaging stitching in softare). What about a Wisner? Thanks again.

 

Steve

steve,

 

i think your follow-up questions are important ones and i'm glad you asked them. i value build quality very highly, initial and long-term. my cameras are used like tools, not as display pieces, and as such, i need them to work reliably on their first outing and just as reliably 5 years into our relationship. like you, i will pay, within reason, whatever the going rate is for such a tool. as such, i found after a lengthy tour through several cameras, that for my needs two cameras were ideal. when i will be going on long hikes or overnights in the wilds, i take a linhof master technika 2000. for EVERYTHING else, i use an arca swiss f-line metric.

 

in my opinion, these are the pinnacles of design in their respective categories - the MT2000 is simply the best compact folding camera ever manufactured and the F-Line is the finest all around camera i have ever used. in my experience, there is not another camera available today that can compare to these. don't take it from me... i was talking with keith canham about his offerings and asked why he didn't make a folder similar to the Master Technika or a compact monorail like the F-Line and he said simply that there was no way he could improve on their designs.

 

to your question about the sweet spot, if backpacking is something you do and price is a consideration, i'd say that a clean Linhof Technika IV or better would be the camera to beat.

Steve, you are starting a completely new question.

 

There are a lot of LF field cameras that are excellent equality for the price, at several quality levels. This still leaves a lot of choices, e.g., weight, rigidity, max extension, etc. at a range of prices.

 

Also, are you only considering new? If so, Wisner isn't currently an option since they have temporarily suspended operations. (And the resumption date seems to be slipping.)

 

The wooden folding cameras tend to be a bit awkward with wide angle lenses -- most require tipping the front standard backwards to get the lens close enough to image plane. If short lenses are important to you, a metal field camera might be more suitable. Currently I use a Linhof Technikardan 45S. It is somewhat expensive new, but curently used prices on ebay seem to be much more reasonable.

 

This brings up another pricing consideration which was only very briefly mentioned above: exchange rates. Currently, for US buyers, the exchanges rates are probably helping Shen-Hao and making Ebony and Linhof expensive.

 

There are past discussions in the archives about the "best" field camera that might give you some ideas. There is no one best field camera because different photographers will consider different features more important.

Believe me I am not irritated by anything Ebony or Shen-Hao does businesswise. And...I neither have a business degree or ever have read any books on business much like I don't read about compositional theory in two dimensional art. I do own a brick and mortar retail as well as internet store and have been in business for 12 years. I learned from doing, not reading. I happen to think Ebony has a great business model.... build a very good product and add/build a "mystique" with it and sell it to the wealthy or those who can at least afford the finer things in life. They built their company around quality and are doing well for it. They are a lot smarter than some other LF companies in this business. Now I also am aware that brand loyalty is present amoung consumers in varying degrees and that the customer generally doesn't care a whit about the dealer questions I have raised. Much like the Walmart customer that only wants the lowest price and doesn't care what the ethics involved are, or if they/Walmart knock the little guy out of business on main st. or pay pittance wages. So lets look at a couple of facts...

1. Low profit margins for dealers. This only allows the big volume(probably internet) dealer to remain viable hence the general trend of the little camera shop on YOUR MAIN ST. to die out. This is why you probably will have a hard time locating Ebony cameras to try out before you buy them, even in the major cities. There are simply not the # of small camera shops in existance anymore and even if there were it would be business suicide to stock items like the Ebony as there is simply no reason monetarily to do so because of the dismal low profits.There is a woefully small amount of people in this business that actually make a living in LF or ULF.I do it as a sideline only and run 3 other business's as well. Film processing used to fill in the gaps with the Mom and Pop operation. This is no longer true. But the good news is that LF is picking up.

2. Certain manufacturers want it both ways. They want to shear everyone and everything they possibly can. They will sell wholesale and then sell retail as well, competing with their dealers. Ebony is not so bad with this but others are.

I just find it a bit humourous in a sad way that a 10 grand 8x10 company that provides practically nothing for the people that promote and sell their products here in the US as well as deal with customer problems etc.,find such a solid base of fervent supporters even though this same company charges 3 to 4x's as much as anyone else for a similar product and pays 2 to 3x's less to the US dealers that have to make a living selling these products. No disrespect intended here but I feel perhaps these customers are a bit shortsighted.

Emile, you keep using phrases such as "shear their customers" to support whatever point it is you are trying to make. Every consumer, whether they are contemplating the purchase of a new pickup truck, a loaf of bread, or a LF camera, makes the purchase decision based on their perception of the value for their dollar. The purchasers of Ebony cameras buy them because they judge them to be a good value for their money. And it is a voluntary transaction. No one's getting "sheared" here.

I have the non-ebony Ebony. It cost about $1600 new. I was willing the spend the additional money because of 3 things - sturdiness, easy attainment of 410mm bellows extension and the universal bellows design. I think it's money well spent. I like the camera more each time I use it which has been for a month. I'm sure I'll have more opinions as time goes by <g>.

 

Like another poster, I also have classical guitars and Ebony is the choice for a hard wood on the fretboard. With very little maintenance (clean and oil once a year) it will last forever and look good forever. But, I don't consider mahogany or cherry to be inferior.

 

In my past I've owned a Tachihara, a Wista DX and a Toyo AX. The Ebony is sturdier than each except for the Toyo (a wonderful camera, by the way - but heavier than I wanted to be this go-around). I loved the Tachihara because it was my first LF camera. But several modifications were necessary to get it to acceptable sturdiness. The Wista was beautiful and an obvious choice if you don't want to spend $1600. I just never bonded with it and I cannot tell you a reason for that.

 

Dislikes for the RW45: No spirit levels and If you use fall (I admit it's rare to use much fall in a landscape), it is possible for the upper front standard knobs to contact the lower front standard knobs (the axis tilt and forward standard movement are worth this minor complaint).

 

Mike

If we're getting back to cameras and leaving economics, I'll list my likes and dislikes about the two Ebony cameras I owned:

 

Likes - Long bellows; availability of bag bellows; extensive movements; mirror attachment allowed the level on the back to actually be seen when using the camera.

 

Dislikes - Three-way focusing system was a pain when using lenses in the approximate 135mm - 240mm range (very aggravating to be in the middle of focusing on a subject and all of a sudden the focusing knob just starts spinning feely in your hand and you have to switch to another knob in order to continue focusing); when setting up the camera the lens board would often "stick" at the top of the front standard so that further "fiddling" was required in order to be able to drop it down into the front standard (this may not be an exactly accurate description of the problem, it's been a couple years since I owned the camera); nowhere near as solid and precise as its metal predecessor, a Linhof Technika V, despite some of the claims to the contrary made here and elsewhere).

 

My wood cameras before the Ebony were a Tachihara, an Agfa Ansco 5x7, and a Deardorff 8x10, none of which used ebony wood or titanium. I didn't think the ebony wood and titanium added anything to the Ebony camera except weight and cost (i.e. I didn't think these materials were necessary in order to make an excellent camera that shared most of the attributes of the Ebony at a small fraction of its cost).

 

Despite my lack of affection for the camera I think it's a mistake to say that Ebony is "sticking it to" a dealer or a consumer by charging a high price and allowing only a small profit margin. An Ebony camera isn't a necessity of life and Ebony doesn't have a monopoly. No dealer is forced to carry them, no photographer is forced to buy one.

I have been following this thred with some interest and smiling as I read the posts that

have little to do with the good an dbad points of the cameras and every to do with, as

Brian said, economics and status. Let me add a few additional points to Brian's comments.

Mine are based solely on a two week field trial of the RW (entry level folder):

 

1) The camera is lightweight, compact and sturdy. It is solid and rigid even at maximum

extension. compared to other wood fields I have used (and I have used most of them) it

compares very favorably in terms of regidity and ease of lockdownof the controls.

 

2) Setting the camera up to use with short lenses (e.g. 75mm) is a PITA.

 

3) In spite of my positive comments above I wouldn't want one as my primary field camera.

I have spent many years using metal folders and neither the Ebony nor any other wood

folder for that matter give you the precision that you get from a Horseman, Linhof, Toyo

or Wista metal field. The Ebony is about the same size as most of these but is much

lighter. For me, compactness counts and weight a bit less unless I am backpacking for

days (which is not often anymore ... but when I did the Horseman FA was fine).

 

4) I can't comment on Ebony's 'higher priced spreads' since I have only handled them at

shows or at a dealer but the RW, aside from itt great universal bellows did not seem to

offer me much that some other wood folders in the same price range offer.

Emile: Why don't you build a web site that will sell cameras and supplies so you can compete along the same footing as the other on-line dealers? They must be doing something right because they have survived. I sympathize with the lose of many storefront shops, but I made a decision a few years ago to live as far away from dense population as possible and when you live like that, you find yourself depending on mail ordering.

<p>

I have a retail site that stocks more than 3,000 collectible art pieces and it only costs about $200.00 a year for server space. There of course was the initial time to set it up and the cost of the store software. After the initial build time, it costs virtually nothing as far as my time goes except when orders need to be processed and shipped.

<p>

I never did try the Ebony out before I bought it, but I did do some research. I read forums writings from owners and emailed a few of them with questions. I did have the Wisner TF to compare it to which I used for more than five years and found it to be flimsy on long bellows extensions and the back would fall off on an occasion. Jeff at Badger told me that if I did not like the Ebony after I tried it, I could return it for a full refund.

<p>

The customer service I have received from Badger is superior (Wisner sadly was an altogether different experience), and the support I received from Ebony Japan turned out positive for a quick and affordable modification. I cannot say anything except that I feel my money was well spent. I personally wanted a camera made from ebony wood and was willing to pay for it just because I like ebony wood. As far as a field camera goes, it does exactly what I want it to do with the accessories I load onto it.

I have been following this thread with interest & have a few comments & further questions.

 

My first reaction is that the less expensive 4x5 makers are simply going for a volume selling aspect similar to Wal-Mart & this is okay as long as buyers are happy & it seems most are.

 

I like Brian's latest comment regarding his likes/dislikes & also that it's his opinion & not to be mixed into a business opinion as to sticking it to the dealers or consumers.

 

Working with ebony wood has to be the most labor intensive material one can work with as well as the cost of the raw materials. Same goes for titanium. Working with any other wood along with brass has to seem like melted butter in comparison. I'm not trying to start a debate on the value of ebony or titanium as the best materials to use but simply referring to the labor & raw costs involved as well as the equipment needed in order to machine these materials. As a hobbyist woodworker I would estimate just the wood alone costs at least 5 times the cost of most woods & I have no perspective on the titanium aspect. This alone simply helps explain the additional costs outside of whatever pricing they are offering their dealers.

 

With respect to Darlene's comment about Wisner - I too have had issues with receiving even an email in response to questions/issues. I have a Wisner Tech field 4x5 that I am mostly happy with.

 

A similar analogy would be buying a mass produced car verses a limited run of custom vehicles. As we've seen over the last few years Rolls Royce/Bentley ended up being sold to BMW & VW. Even though they were considered to be the worlds best cars a lot of people differed on this opinion. Obviously BMW & VW bought them for the panache that a TM name like these bring along with trying to create a "flagship model".

 

A story I read while back explained with images the craftsman that did the steering wheel's leather coverings. It was an 8 hour project for each wheel & yes they were very nicely done. However - not everyone wishes to spend 200k on a car - but for those who choose to do so this kind of market exists. I am certain that the BMW & VW math for regular cars translates into countless steering wheels per 8 hour shift & hence the higher costs for custom handmade work.

 

Very simply - if you like it & can afford it - buy it.

 

My question is what is the ultimate 4x5 field camera with regards to craftsmanship & smooth solid actions? Gandolfi? Opinions?

 

Enough rambling - Regards to all

The ebony Ebony with all the bells and whistles is a true objet d'art, in a class with the

Leica

IIIf RD-ST or a high-end Gandolfi. Comparisons (already made) to Patek Phillipe, Bentley,

etc., come easily to mind.

 

I know I guy who bought a wafer-thin gold Patek and wore it on special occasions. He'd

walk around with his right hand hovering above his left wrist to protect the watch from

bumps or scrapes. The slightest knock would dent the gold; the slightest shake would jar

the exquisite movement. Repair prices were astronomical. He got rid of the watch just to

breathe easier. Bentleys (like Ebonys), unlike the Patek, are exceedingly sturdy and

engineered for wear-and-tear. But no one wants to drive a Bentley full of parking-lot

dings, and no one wants to shoot an Ebony that has the pockmarks, divots, and scratches

that collect on wooden cameras that are being used heavily in the field.

 

That's the problem, I think. I've scrunched, dropped, and kicked my Tech IV a number of

times over the years. I've used it in the face of blowing sand, rancid snow, and plenty of

urban dirt. Never once have I gone home to open the scotch bottle for consolation. The

Ebony, however, is pristine. It wants to stay that way. It will turn on its owner if not given

the proper level of TLC. You don't want to mess up its beautiful tresses or bruise its

fantastic body.