History and politics and leica

Hello All:

 

I feel uneasy about trying to separate Leicas and those who use them

from the currents of history, no matter what the political colour or

side of the French Assembly they occupy.

 

 

From the very first images Oscar Baranack took of the floods in

Wetzlar, through the picture of Hitler meeting Stalin by Eisenstadt,

thruough Che Guevera to the Vietnamese girl in napalm, Leicas (and

other PJ machines)have been inextricably bound to history and

politics. Ansel Adams met with Ronald Regan trying to convince him

to change his policy of wilderness (non) preservation. (Ooops, my

bias slipped!)( If you want to open a real can of worms, what about

the charge of the use of slave labour by Leica during the 3rd

Reich?)

 

 

As the jet engine and the car have contributed to the changes in the

world, so have the still and movie camera changed forever the way we

think and feel about world events, war in particular. Witness the

response to Speilberg's "Saving Private Ryan". Is that not one of

the main purposes of Art: to elicit emotional responses to our world

and the deeds of those in it?

 

After all the opening up of emotions and ideas, what's the use of

squelching them? I have no real hostile feelings towards those who

differ with, or challenge my statements along with my pictures.

Those who contribute to this forum, with one or two exceptions, seem

like sensible thinking people, and I have no fear or qualms

whatsoever about seeing their posts on a Leica forum. There is lots

of room on the Web for arcane discussions on the benfits of square

vs round lens hoods, and there is room for political opinions.

 

I enjoy taking pictures of flowers and mountains, but without the

emotive Photojournalistic aspect of our hobby/ vocation/ avocation/

obsession, it would be mere technique.

 

Further to the comments about decrying Salgado, Natchwey or others

on the Leica forum, would we redbait Picasso for Guernica on an art

forum, or would we prohibit others from doing so?

 

I do not need Andy's or Rob's approval to continue feeling good

about myself, nor do I give them the power to piss me off. Let them

flame and have their say, as we are all connected one way or another

(however strangely or circuitously) by the tools we use.

 

Cheers<div></div>

Richard: been away for a while. An interesting question which seems to

come up from time to time. I wonder, do people ask the same thing

about Japanese cameras or Russian cameras?

 

My 2 cents worth: a camera is a peaceful tool.

 

Wouldn't it have been better if Hitler had concentrated on encouraging

camera production, building Autobahns etc instead of launching WW2?

 

My point: it is what one does that matters, not who does it.

 

I have a 1935 Leica, yet I too wonder about the time in which it was

built and what happened to the men who built it...

 

Re "slave labour" and Leica, although many German companies did make

use of slave labour (their technological products were appropriated,

by the way, by the Americans at the end of the war under Operation

Paperclip to secure a postwar economic advantage for the US), the

evidence does not seem to suggest this applied to Leica. According to

Herb Keppler writing in PopPhoto (about Dec 2000 I think but can't be

quite sure), Leica actually helped German Jews by sending them to

posts abroad. Which point I cannot verify, but the point remains: be

very sure of your facts before assigning any blame. I do not really

understand what you are trying to say here.

 

Except that, why not discuss all topics? Don't just limit it to

lenshoods or posting pictures.

"I do not need ... Rob's approval to continue feeling good about myself..."

 

Thank God for that!

Hello Richard! There is no evidence that Leica used slave

laborers before or during WWII. The companies' beneficient

policy toward Jews has been well reported and is worthy of

commendation.

I think it's pointless to worry about the roles played by German companies during WW II. The people who may have been involved are long gone. Anyway, why pick on Leitz? Why not Agfa, Zeiss, Mercedes, BMW, etc, etc? That way madness lies!

I once had a World War II veteran refused to be photographed by my Japanese camera. I tried to explain that holding that hatred within for fifty years would only hurt him by allowing the stress to affect his health. I think we must be aware of the past, but make today's decisions based on what's best in today's world.

Richard, If you attend the Leica Historical Society of America's convention this year in Portland, Ore. See www.lhsa.org for details. You can listen to a person talk about the Leitz Freedom train and how Elise Kuhn Leitz was imprisoned by the Nazis for her non-cooperaion.

Interesting (repeat) discussion...comes up all the time in

photography, not just Leica....

 

I'm a bicycle buff...not racing, not performance, the BICYCLE

ITSELF!!! (not unlike most of the leica fanatics). I am interested

in bicycle history, stories, etc...couldn't care less about

"winning", "performance", "training", "health", etc...

I have a bicycle book from 30 or so years ago, and I'd like to

paraphrase from same:

 

"The bicycle is not healthy or unhealthy. The bicycle is not

liberal or conservative. The bicycle simply "IS"...

People, however, are another story..."

 

Substitute loosly "Leica" for "bicycle"...you get the idea.

Leicas (and all other cameras) have been used throughout the

20th century. BY ALL FOLKS. Left, right, clergy, MDs, axe

murderers and law enforcement. For ALL purposes, good and

bad. From/to all "viewpoints"...if I may be so bold:

 

"The Leica simply "is"..."

 

Walt

I believe that if someone's photography is meant to be political, it shouldn't need to be accompanied by a written manifesto. If it does, then they have some work to do on their "art". Otherwise IMO it's just people using any available forum to get up on a soapbox.

It's been an odd couple of days here, due IMO to emotions in one way connected to 911. I personally think this is fine and agree with Richard. One of the things I like about this forum has always been the civility fo the people concerned, but ones personal philosophy and politics definitely color the way in which we look at the world...and that is one of the things photography is all about. We may have hugely varied stances on issues, but not allowing them to be voiced at all is counterproductive.

Last words

 

Please note I said "charges" of using slave labour. I know it is not so.

 

This is the last I have to say on any topic such as this, at least for a long time.

 

Thanks to ALL for participating.

 

CHeers

Speaking of Leica during WWII, does anyone have any links to

what Leica actually did do viz slave workers? This topic gets

mentioned occassionally and I'd like to nail it if I could for the

FAQ.

Richard, nice picture

I care little about what happened 65 years ago. Japanese forces also enslaved hundreds of thousands of civilians and allied troops to build railways in their ww2 territories. Wont stop us using their cameras or electronics will it? Only someone personally affected at the time is qualified to condemn.

 

I found out once that a quality German made record player I enjoyed using in the 1980s was manufactured by the same company who produced the Gyro guidance / stabilisor systems on the V2 rockets that were used in an attempt to flatten London here in my country. (Almost certainly made by slave labour in places like Peenmunde.)

 

Did'nt ruin 1 second of my listening because it was really old history.

 

Disney and Carnival run very successful cruise ships serving thousands of customers whilst 'employing' slave labour from the Philippines and elsewhere.

 

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/labor/cruise.htm

 

Wont stop anyone enjoying their cruise for a second.

 

Adidas and Nike are famed for their 'employment' of slave labour in the manufacture of various goods like soccer balls / trainers / clothing etc. on the Indian sub-continent and Indonesia.

 

The pyramids in Egypt were produced by Slave labour allegedly.

 

So are large quantities of tea , coffee , rubber , chocolate , nuts , sugar.

 

Vast numbers of people in developing areas are being deployed in 'call centres' for western Corps and Banks in places like India on derisory wages under bullying conditions with zero worker protections and even less health and safety legislation.

 

Thousands of Pakistanis are employed in slave conditions for Saudi Arabian families and have their passports locked up to prevent their escape.

 

Thousands more are enslaved in gangs to work in some of the most toxic and dangerous conditions in the world to break up old oil tankers and cargo ships that are driven onto beaches in India and Pakistan for scrap.

 

The fact that some 65 year old Leica may (or may not) have been made by a person against their will is of no matter today unless you were that person.

 

Perhaps whilst thinking of of your PC you may spare a thought for IBM and their involvement with the wholesale kitting out of the Nazi civil service with Hollerith systems with which to conduct such slavery and monstrousness during the 1930's and 40's.

 

Every single commodity or manufactured item in the world without exception is a political / economic thing and will carry consequences and responsibilities no matter how big or trivial. Whether it is a Leica a cruise missile or a childs bike or a peanut.

While I fully agree that Leica is a great camera and Mercedes a decent car, I wonder if TODAY people buying and using Leicas and Mercedes are more likely than the average person to share the views of the time and place where those products were initially marketed. That might explain some of what is going on in some other threads here... (such as the wnw streetzen thread).

Well, that's an interesting question, Sharon. But what exactly do you mean by it? At the time the Leica was developed, Germany was the center of progressive thinking and a hotbed of political (and personal) radicalism. It also boasted a long and deep current of liberalism, which I understand was manifest in the Leitz family (the same family which later, at great risk, sent jews to safety in what became known as the Leica freedom train). Of course all this progressive thinking must have been pretty threatening to the powers of the time, because their response to it was to unleash Nazism. So, are Leica users represented by the freedom, enthusiasm, and creative energy of the StreetZen thread - reflecting that which was found in Germany at the Leica's birth? Or are they represented by the authoritarian, arbitrary response to same?

<I>...hotbed of political (and personal) radicalism...</I><P>That's precisely what I meant, refering to the streetzen thread. There also, in my opinion, we find quite radical moderators as well as regulars. As to which ones are the good guys and which ones the bad, is up to personal view. Just like: <UL><LI>the Leitz family helped Jews to safety, <LI>the Leitz family used slave labor.</UL>

I could be wrong in this, Sharon, but I think it's been pretty well established that the Leitz family never used slave labor, in their factories or anywhere else. Now <i>Zeiss</i> on the other hand used slave labor aplenty. <p>

 

Today, looking back, everything German gets tarred with the same brush. I guess that's understandable, but it's not correct.