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many really dumb general questions


reinhard_scheuregger

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hi all, i hope you will have mercy on my complete ignorance when it comes to LF. i usually

shoot people (well...) with my old Hasselblad 500 C or my Mamiya, sometimes, too, i use a

equally old Leica m3. so i was wondering: when i switched from 35mm to MF the effect

was breathtaking, learning curve steep and fast. what'd i have to expect from going LF? is

it even "better", different...? or would you suggest portraits on LF don't make sense in the

first place - provided i won'T print larger than 20x20 ? and what are we talking money-

wise here? film, polas, lab? how much would you average a single shot? sorry again, but

am i right assuming, there is no film readily available in rolls, like the 120 or 220? does

that mean i have to "load" film into the back/magazine myself? (and how does that work,

is it complicated?) what about flash-sync, possible at all times? and finally: what kind of

rig would be suitable for a beginner, especially in the field of portraits and people? thanks

for your patience, but who am i to ask, if not you ... best regards from Berlin. reinhard

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Hello,

 

In my opinion the difference between large format and medium format is /much/ larger than between medium format and all smaller formats. I don't necessarily mean the difference in quality, but more the difference in handling and usage.

 

Sheet film which has to be loaded into film holders in total darkness. Since you probably won't buy and/or carry around dozens of film holders, you always need a changing bag or even a changing tent (not necessary for 4x5" as far as I'm concerned). That's one of these handling differences I mean.

 

More detailed explanation: Basically, you buy a cardboard box with 10 or 25 or 50 (or more) sheets of film which have a notch so that you can identify which side the emulsion is in total darkness. You have a film holder which is basically a light-tight flat thingy into which you can load two sheets of film in total darkness. Each side has a dark slide similar to medium format film backs. I used six film backs (i.e., 12 shots) when shooting 4x5". As soon as that limit is reached (or if you want to change film) it's time for the changing bag.

 

There is an absolutely great web site about large format photography from which I learned /everything/ which I needed to start shooting: http://www.largeformatphotography.info Film loading is explained here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/loading.html

 

Since you live in Berlin, you have a great store where you can buy all things related to large format at good prices: http://www.fotoimpex.de

 

One important question is: what are you going to do with your negatives/slides? A 4x5" enlarger is very large, very heavy, and (usually) expensive. That's one of the reasons why I'm moving to 8x10" -- here, contact prints are sufficient (and have an even larger image quality).

 

In my opinion, quality differences can be noticed -- the colours/tones are richer, a certain three-dimensionality emerges when looking at a 4x5" slide or a print from a 4x5" negative. Portraiture makes perfectly sense in large format and there are many great photographers who used and use it for this field. I recommend you take a look at Ansel Adams's books, in particular "The Negative". A great "textbook" by one of the greatest landscape photographers ever which contains an awful lot of useful information for large format.

 

Good luck for your venture and best wishes from Austria,

 

David

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What I should have wrote as well: Large format can be extremely satisfying. Since everything takes more time, you are much more likely to take your time. As a result, the proportion of good shots will typically be much larger than in any other format.

 

I also like the somewhat archaic appeal of large format: your camera is simply a light-tight bellows with a lens plate with shutter and diaphragm in front and a ground glass/film holder on the back.

 

It's easy to "understand" how such a camera works, and therefore the experience is much more direct that when using an electronic does-everything where it remains a mystery /how/ it does everything.

 

David

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Last message tonight, just to give you some motivation that it can indeed work easily.

 

This photo was only my 51st large format shot ever, taken just a few weeks after having bought my first large format camera (Graflex Super Speed Graphic), on a Scotland trip:

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/595238

 

Another photo from that trip:

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/618168&size=lg

 

All of that was possible with the help of the web since I didn't know anybody around using large format. The web is a great source to learn the arcane secrets of large format photography ;-)

 

David

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thanks for your fast response, david. i will be looking into these enclosed links. i've sort of

grown close to the the habit to load "all" my backs and cameras prior to a model's

appearance. model meaning here: a friend, aquaintance, friend of friend of friend ... strictly

hobby what i'm doing here. so basically i have 36 shots with my leica, 4x12 exposures on

Hasselblad and 2x10 (6x7) with the mamiya beast - handheld with a lot of light. adding

another 10 exposures with a LF camera could be tempting, obviously adding yet another

flavour and quality to a session.

greets to austria. renhard

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I cannot comment about LF portrait photography since I do outdoor photography only. It's no secret that smaller formats don't come close to achieving the exquisite detail of LF; a fact that is lost to anyone who hasn't made the move to LF.

 

I've been shooting LF for just over a year and I learned 95% of it online. I never held an LF camera until I purchased my first wood field camera. If you're like most newbies, initially the whole LF process may seem intimidating and difficult; but once you see your first stunning chrome on a lightbox, you will never be the same - and you will be glad you made the leap. My only regret is that I waited so long to get into LF. Life is short; do it now.

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Whew

 

what'd i have to expect from going LF?

 

Smoother, cleaner bigger enlargements, but mostly movements

 

is it even "better", different...?

 

Better yes. Even though 6x7 carries close to the same detail, you can scan 4x5 at a lower rez for big enlargements.

 

or would you suggest portraits on LF don't make sense in the first place - provided i won'T print larger than 20x20 ?

 

Stick with MF for 20x20, unless you want movements, or want to experience LF.

 

and what are we talking money- wise here?

 

Depends. Start with a solid camera and 1-2 lenses and accessories.

 

film, polas, lab? how much would you average a single shot?

 

Depends. Readyloads are $3 each and processing is $2 (US)

Sheet film is less. Ebay sheet film is much less. Efke 25 cost 70 cents per sheet here, and I process in folgernal so dev is only pennies.

 

Here is one of my last.

 

http://www.pbase.com/tammons/image/54402799/large

 

sorry again, but am i right assuming, there is no film readily available in rolls, like the 120 or 220?

 

Right only readyloads, quickloads and sheets.

 

does that mean i have to "load" film into the back/magazine myself?

 

Yes unless its readyloads or quickloads.

 

and how does that work, is it complicated?)

 

Not complicated, but its best to buy a changing tent. There are quite a few steps for each shot and it takes getting used to. Everything is very manual.

 

what about flash-sync, possible at all times?

 

Yes i think so, but I am not a flash user. flash sync is on the side of the shutter housing.

 

and finally: what kind of rig would be suitable for a beginner, especially in the field of portraits and people?

 

Probably a rail camera. Also maybe a couple of portrait length lenses and a reflex viewer.

 

thanks for your patience, but who am i to ask, if not you ... best regards from Berlin. reinhard

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I knew absolutely nothing about LF. I would look at catalogs not knowing what was needed and what was accessories. My ignorance made it very easy to be intimidated.

 

You can get initiated on a budget with a Speed Graphic. The cost is low, and odds are if you decided it's not for you, you will probably get all of your money back if you sell it.

 

Movements are somewhat limited. A transition from here to a view camera is easy and painless.

 

My Speed Graphic was $56.00 on that oboy site, and came with hard case, holder, flash, hood, and lens. It was functional right out of the box. I did buy some more film holders for it.

 

My view camera was a Graphic View, because it was priced low and I was near broke. Lenses and holders interchange between the two cameras. I paid 70 some odd bucks for a view camera and was using it the day it arrived.

 

There are so many of these old Graflex cameras available, they don't demand much of a price. While the Graphic View isn't hardly the best camera out there, it's still a good camera. When you consider the low prices, it's probably a fantastic value.

 

If you want better later on, get another camera. The lenses will go into the new boards. Again, this will allow for a budget upgrade because you would have everything except the rail, standards, and bellows.

 

I develop my own film. Black & White and E-6. I hope to be doing color negatives before long. This too has greatly reduced prices. As someone mentioned prior, I happen to get my film short or out dated on the oboy site. This reduces film cost down to about 20%, or 80% off; however you want to look at it.

 

Real low budget, and you can expect better results with one of these than you are getting with your medium format (Mamiya & 'blad).

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The biggest differences are:

 

1 You are tied to a tripod except for press cameras

2 With few exceptions you need to be under a dark cloth to compose

3 Film is harder to get and even harder to get processed

4 Many who do commercially process use dip and dunk where the film is held by clips and it ends up all stretched out of shape, ie no longer flat

5 Cold weather photography can be miserable as you need fine finger control and movement that is at best difficult with gloves

6 You can not see the subject right up to clicking the shutter so close ups of things moving in the wind are more difficult.

7 Tripods get heavier/larger and cameras get larger and perhaps heavier.

8 Older cheaper lenses are worse than older cheaper 35mm lenses. The newest are equal to the best 35mm currently made. All the older lenses I had were replaced with the newest designs because my leicas made better better pictures than the 1960`s LF lenses. All the above was a waste of time without good glass.

9 4x5 will start to show better quality in 11x14 over 35mm and 16x20 over MF.

10 Due to longer set up time you will never ne able to react to fast changing light and other conditions.

 

I end up using 4x5 about 10% of the time when I feel like overcoming all the above. There is good reason why some famous photog said if it more than 100 feet from his truck, it is not photogenic.

 

That`s my take on it. I use it and like it but would not want it to be my only system. Good 2 1/4 should satisfy most amateurs need. I have 35 and 4x5. I think 35 and a `Blad would meet my needs better.

But I`m not selling my 4x5.

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Try LF portraits using Polaroid Type 72. It develops a print in 30 sec to a minute, it's a beautiful film, and it's ISO 400. With a 210mm lens and only natural light (probably outside in open shade) your shutter speeds will be slow enough to where with a little coaching, marvelous things happen. If folks need to hold really still for a long shutter speed, they resort to summoning up who they really are, and that makes it to the film. I think all of my best protraits have been on Polaroid, and I no longer have them because I gave them to the subjects!

 

That said, the Polaroid is one-of-a-kind. It is a great learning tool, however, and will teach you a lot about your equipment and working methods.

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I agree with the poster who said the difference is wider than the jump from 35mm to medium format... without a doubt. The beauty with shooting 4x5 or for that matter 8x10 also is that it slows you down and your compositions will be better along with all other aspects of your shooting! Also, having the ability to hand hold is still available... by using a "field camera" like a Graphic or a favorite of mine, my Linhof Tec III or V. Most of us who shoot B/W LF negs do our own processing. Yes, there are still labs who do decent processing of B/W negs but they are getting fewer and the length is getting longer to get your film back from the lab.

Loading film is done one of a few ways. Film holders are typically used which holds 2 sheets (one on either side) of film. Then there are the "Readyload" films made by Kodak. These are handy and I use them when weight restrictions are important. They hold one or 2 sheets in their own light tight holder where you can use a Polaroid holder to expose them. Still available are the pack holders where you can load sheets in what are called "Plenums" and put them into a "pack" holder. You also can shoot roll film with the appropriate roll film holder with formats from 6x6, 6x7, 6x9 and 6x12 in both 120 and 220. As you can see, there are a good deal of options that can be used but the beauty of a well made print from a well made 4x5 negative is short of astounding.

Shooting with flash isn't an issue either as you can shoot any shutter speed. This can be a very good thing because you can illeviate any or all ambient light by raising your shutter speed or do some great synchro sun by placing the shutter speed where you need.

Cost... it is similiar to the cost of medium format but you are only working with one negative... you can get a camera for a few hundred dollars with a lens and holders to start off with and they can be found in camera stores, estate auctions, flea markets, yard sales and the like. There are a good amount listed on www.ebay.com with a large amount of bodies and lens from around the world!

Hope this helps.

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positives, huge negs, bigger prints,less grain,,.. negatives, depth of field loss with portrait length lenses( in closeups i can have the ears out of foucus, with groups its tough to get two rows focused together with 100 film, may be rectified with faster film).. , lots of setup time, cant think of alot more right now.. i would go with rediloads unless you have a lab that can touch up dust spots.. its almost impossible to not get dust when changing negs in holders in dry climates.. ive known guys who wet the floor down arund here to increase humidiy and keep dust down when reloading and developing.. dave..
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