doug herr Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Mark B, the photos of captive birds weren't "included" any more than the photos of mammals and scenery were included. It was simply a web page I had previosly set up showing what could be done with a 300mm lens; it was not bird-specific. They appear to have been included because I didn't actively exclude those photos. <P> I agree with you wholeheartedy about not disturbing the birds, and I've made a rule for myself: no nest photography. I've bent the rule a few times with cavity-nesters such as woodpecker nest holes; these were made with longest lenses I had available. <P> WRT disturbing the birds I've found that proximity alone isn't what birds respond to. My behavior is as big a factor as proximity, maybe more. By acting like a prey species not a predator many species accept me as a benign part of the background. I've also found that the big glass is far more disturbing to the birds than smaller lenses when aimed in their direction. I don't know if they think it's a huge eye staring at them or a big mouth but either way I find that birds require much more distance when I use the big fast lens. <P> The photographer's behavior make a very big difference: <CENTER> <IMG SRC="http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/thrushes/mobl00.jpg" border="2"> </CENTER> <P> This Mountain Bluebird forraged for several hours over an area of a few acres, while I was only a few feet away. Quite often the bird chose to fly to perches that were less than 10' away from me. This particular photo was at about 6' distance, with a 250mm lens.<P> <CENTER> <IMG SRC="http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/falconidae/gyrf00.jpg" border="2"> </CENTER> <P> This gyrfalcon was photographed at about 15' with a 400mm lens. It's too bad I didn't have extension tubes handy because the bird was curious and hopped within 6' of me. <P> <CENTER> <IMG SRC="http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/falconidae/merl00.jpg" border="2"> </CENTER> <P> There were several Merlins in the area; I couldn't include them all in the photos because my lens wasn't wide enough. 300mm lens, cropped from horizontal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbb Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Douglas, we are all here to learn more and to help those who may benefit from our experience. I think many animals have as much individual responses are we humans. In my experience the way I move has more to do to scare away individual than my lenses. But again we are all different, we move different we meet different individual animals. I do not go after the whole animal kingdom, I choose my favorites and spend time with them. Of course if something different come close I try to photograph it as well. Unfortunately I have a problem with nests. That was a second year I spent countless hours with least bitterns. I knew location of few nest but did not want to break trust with parents. This species is commonly known as one of most elusive, shadow bird, who know what. Most wrong if you learn how to make them to accept your presence. I had many times least bitterns walking or hunting a few feet away from me. I could not even take photo as it was too close. See below full frames, they hunt near me, feed young near me, named. I already documented more then dozen new feeding behaviors never associated with this species. Can not post photos yes as I still not finished my observations. <p> So, my most used glass is 400 and 100-400 but the quality is less and nobody can change that <p> Least bittern hunting 6 feet away - let me even follow him along the marsh: <p style="text-align:center"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/3650624-lg.jpg" /></p> <p> Feeding time: 400 mm as well, she (him as well) let me be a part of it for few weeks. Can not find any photo showing least bitterns feeding young outside nest. Will really appreciate link to one. <p style="text-align:center"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/3656627-lg.jpg" /></p> <p> More here: a small part of tens of thousand documental photos taken in last two years. <p> http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=520911 <p> Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbb Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 And here my dream came true - kestrel was hunting near me. I never use blinds. Hate them, too hot inside. <p style="text-align:center"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/3927759-lg.jpg" /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd_rose Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Mr. Bartosik, I must not have a very good "internet" voice. I was not trying to flame anyone. In this thread I was simply celebrating the bird and also showing that, under the right circumstance, even a point and shoot can capture a interesting picture. Hardware is only starting point to bird photography. In the other thread you refered to, I referered to the gentleman's photo in high praise, and in reference to his exact question, I noted that I could not ID the bird. Sorry for the mis-understanding. --- JDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbb Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 No problem on my side JRD. What counts is that we both love birds. Sorry for misunderstanding. Best Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbb Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 JDR - sorry again :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd_rose Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Mr. Bartosik, I'll be the first to admit that if Mr. O'Toole hadn't ask the question I would have. I am brand new at this. I love birds and I am priviledged to live in an area with large birds. I want to get better. I took this on the way to work today. Fully zoomed and then very cropped. --- JDR<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbb Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 JD there is only one way: practice, practice, practice. And never be fully contented with results. I will tell you a little secret. I am extremely happy if I take one very good photo a year and one good one a month. Plus a few stock photos daily when shooting. And I am not joking. Do not look seriously at 7s/7s all around this side. It is very hard to get exceptional photograph and many, many people are trying all the time. Try to do your best, always try to learn something new and do not underestimate hardware:). Best wishes, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug herr Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 I think what's missing from this discussion is the purpose of the photographs. For some it's documenting rarities, for others documenting behavior for original research, and some just want pretty pictures of the birds (and there are many othr reasons people might want to photograph birds). I don't think Mark B and I are disagreeing on much though from his posts it's a little hard to understand this. Mark's Least Bittern post in particular was a bit cryptic. I wish I knew what he means by "<I>Most wrong if you learn how to make them to accept your presence.</I>" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbb Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 It is late and I am trying to do too many things. And take to many shortcuts when writing. <i>Most wrong </i>(most infos in books and papers are wrong - I think because so little observations were done) <i>if you learn how to make them to accept your presence </i>((so if one learn real behavior of those birds one have no problem to be accepted around). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_chappell Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 <I>Peregrine Falcon, Enjoying a breakfast of Cottontail</i><P> Um.... in a friendly and non-judgemental way, let me gently point out that this is almost certainly a red-tailed hawk (I'm assuming the photo was taken in North America). It's definitely not a peregrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug herr Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Mark B, thanks for the explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwhillman Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I am sure that Paul got more than be bargained for when he opened this thread with a simple question about pursuing an interest in bird photography. There are many great comments and photos in this thread, but I hope that we have not left him with the impression that he should not bother if he is not willing to shell out $5,000+ for a lens alone. As Doug points out, there are many reasons to pursue bird photography. For some, the simple joy of the outdoor activity, an interest in learning more about birds, and the pleasure of getting a few good images (even though they may be less than perfect) are reasons enough. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_thorlin Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 may I be permitted a final comment or two ? Despite a few little spats along the way I suspect we have all learnt something - including, but not only, "different strokes for different folks" and sometimes "size does matter". For me perhaps the most encouraging thing has been the almost universal acceptance that the interests of the birds comes first and the interest in the birds comes second. Sadly it is not always so but hopefully the message will be boosted by all who have posted in this way on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_otoole1 Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Very interesting responses. I have had a look at many cameras and would be able to swing a Nikon D50 instead of a Canon Rebel T1 film. Does anyone own this camera for wildlife photoprahy. I would be able to get a D50 kit that includes two lenses: 18-55/55-200 In a few weeks a larger one say in the 300 - 400mm range. The only reason Ii thought film was to learn photography at my own pace by trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Paul, I admire your thinking about film and appreciate it (as I can relate to it). Consider what Heather Forcier wrote (click on her name and treat yourself to some fabulous bird photography). It will make things faster. If your are choosing a Nikon DSLR, get a D70s instead of the D50 plus two lenses. I would suggest that you pay attention to what Christoper wrote, 300mm f/4 Nikkor plus the 1.4X TC from Kenko. Look at his examples. If you decide to stick to Canon, you also have options as Kin suggested with a fabulous example. In any event, have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_chappell Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 <I> The only reason Ii thought film was to learn photography at my own pace by trial and error.</i><P> To be honest, I think you'll learn much more quickly with a DSLR, if for no other reason than not feeling the pressure of film and development costs every time you click that shutter. I agree with Vivek: skip the kit lenses and get a 300 + 1.4X (and a tripod if you can afford it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_chappell Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Forgot to add: consider the Canon digital rebel and the Canon 300/4 lens instead of the Nikon equivalents. Not because one brand is better than the other in general, but the Canon 300/4 has image stabilization -- extremely useful if you don't want to be wedded to a tripod. Thus far, Nikon hasn't put stabilization (VR in their terminology) into the Nikon 300/4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd_rose Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Mr. Chappell, Thanks for the ID on the bird. I never got a real good look at him. I double checked with my Sibley book and thought that was it. Juvenile Red-tailed with the light brow? The picture was taken at Lake Powell, Arizona --- JDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_chappell Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 JDR: Hawk ID can be a challenge but I'm about 99.9% certain it's an immature red-tail. The shape is correct for a red-tail, as is the coloration. The heavy black belly-band suggests a juvenile (a better view of the tail would clinch it). There aren't many other possibilities. The apparent eyestripe is a little distracting but the juvenile red-taile on the bottom of <A HREF="http://www.biology.ucr.edu/personal/MACphotos/birds3/ redtails2.html">this page</a> shows a slight eye-line.<P> One of the clues is that it's eating a rabbit. Peregrines very rarely catch rabbit-sized mammals (they're bird specialists). Another clue -- much harder to describe, but easily recognizable with experience (bird ID becomes increasingly easy with practice) -- is the shape and proportions. Big falcons don't have the same ... gestalt, for want of a better word ... as red-tails. It's vaugely apparent in the pictures of perched peregrines on <A HREF="http://www.biology.ucr.edu/personal/MACphotos/birds3/peregrine.html"> this page.</a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd_rose Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Hello Mr. Chappell, I think I know why the brow is so pronounced in my Red-tailed. In Sibley, they illustrate a juvenile "Southwestern" red-tailed with a prominent brow. That is probably what we are seeing in my image. We are right on the Utah/Arizona line. --- JDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_chappell Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 <I> We are right on the Utah/Arizona line.</i><P> Just to complicate the lives of birders, lots of red-tails from northern regions migrate south in the winter, mixing in with the local resident populations. And that species is highly variable even within populations. Some examples showing color ranges in southern California: <A HREF="http://biology.ucr.edu/personal/MACphotos/birds3/ RTHfly.html">here</a> and <A HREF="http://biology.ucr.edu/personal/MACphotos/birds3/ redtail.html">here.</a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_otoole1 Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 I have been away for a bit, just finished reading all the threads again. Great help from many birders, thanks alot for all the time and posts. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awahlster Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Ever notice how many Photographers don't play well with others. MAN what a bunch of little kids arguing over nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_otoole1 Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 Things go a bit side tracked Mark. My end result was to get some specific recommendations on a body; tripod; filters; 2-3 lenses etc. Thanks again. I am still reading and researching so I am sure this will only help when I finally buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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