Is there a book that explains the ins and outs of B&W processing?

Here's my situation:

 

I have a pretty strong interest in B&W photography, but I don't have

a lifestyle that will permit me to experiment with every kind of

developer/film combo to reach the desired tonality, sharpness and

gamma. I would like to learn about different developers, film types,

the purpose of rating films @ different speeds. Another thing I can't

figure out is the purpose of pushing/pulling the neg's to reach a

achieve a certain look. I'm basically working in siuations that are

planned and light availability is NOT an issue. I only want to learn

these things so I can actually plan to get a the desired tonality,

grain and gamma to match the shot.

 

I would like to learn as much I can about this stuff so I kind of a

head start.

 

 

 

I currently develop my own neg's and use Tri-X with Rodinal and

absolutely can't stand the results. It's like the most ugly grain

I've ever seen IMO. I like Tri-X and I like other films I've seen

developed in Rodinal, but together I don't like it. Maybe I'm doing

something wrong.

 

 

If anyone has any advice to offer me, I would GREATLY appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

 

btw, I only shoot 35mm and 120.

David Vestal, "The Craft of Photography" and "The Art of Black and White Enlarging" (both out of print I believe-see alibris.com and ebay.com) and/or Henry Horenstein, "Black and White Photography-A Basic Manual" and "Beyond Basic Photography" = my favorites for laying out the basics in a most straight forward way. But truth be told you seem to already have the basics in hand so, IMO, the secret to success will not be found in a book - I've been there/done that - but in your willingness to refine/adjust what you are already doing. I have no clue as to why you are not getting the results you want but a few thoughts - be very slow to blame the film and developer - initially restrict your print size until you have very tight control of your exposure/developing/printing process - pay close attention to the details such as temperature control, consistent agitation and timing - be generous with the volume of film developer you use per roll processed - pay no attention to the EI's and developing times others are using but instead begin looking at your results carefully and critically (too much grain with harsh contrast-shorten development time - black empty shadows - lower your EI). Once you can process your negatives with consistency then it's a matter of exposing enough and guarding against developing too long. So buy and read or shoot/process and evaluate a bunch - your choice.

Matt, can't recommend a book I'm aftraid, but try Tri-X in Xtol diluted 1:3 for 12.5 mins at 20C. I've been using that combination for the last three years ans have been pleased with the results.

For more indepth info about film and developers try Steve ANchell's b ook the Film Cookbook.

I like you don't like rodinal with faster speed films, i don't think you are doing anything wrong, the fact is that this combination is giving you a look you don't like.

 

You might try Xtol , or HC110 , then again, the results may or maynot fit your needs.

If what you want to do is gain a quick understanding of how various films and developers interact to produce different results, then Anchell and Troop's <i>The Film Development Cookbook</i> is an excellent place to start.

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If what you want to learn is how to control exposure and development to achieve a given artistic result, then it sounds like an understanding of the Zone System is what you are after. The place to start for that is the classic Ansel Adams books on the subject. Of particular interest to you might be the second book <i>The Negative</i> which gives an excellent discussion of just the issues you seem to be interested in.

Since you aren't a beginner, Ansel Adams' "The Negative":

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0821221868/qid=1123935896/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-2877044-6595852

When I first started out in the darkroom I wanted to try every film and developer on the market. That was in 1961 and nothing is the same now, not the films for sure, and most of the developers are gone with some newer ones hitting the market. For over 30 years I've pretty much standardized on Kodak D76 diluted 1:1 and used as a one-shot. Tri-X has been my main standby as a film. Lately I've been trying some Ilford products (HP5 Plus and ID-11) again mostly because it looks like Kodak might be pulling out of the business completely.

 

Essentially if you want more contrast increase development. If you want more density increase exposure. That's all those books are going to tell you. Yup, you can increase development to get a printable image when you're forced to underexpose, but it will still be contrasty and be lacking in shadow detail. There's no free ride.

 

Rodinol gives very sharp distinctive grain. Some people like the look, others don't. Diafine, a 2 bath developer, will give you a decent negative with Tri-X at 1,000 or 1,200 but the negatives often look flat and lack "punch". Most of the other developers will give you your best negative at an E.I. between 250 and 400 with Tri-X.

 

Remember: "The lousier your negatives are the better the printer you'll become!" Not a happy thought perhaps, but a common saying years ago, and still true today.

I would recommend the "The Darkroom Cookbook" and "Edge of Darkness". The Cookbook will explain all about developers, how they work, what types of results you can expect, and other things that you should know before jumping around from developer to developer. "Edge" covers a lot of ground on both film and equipment technique, it is easy to read, and I found it very helpful in improving my results and understanding of the process. These are the two books that have been the most help for me and are they are the most referenced books in my photographic library.

 

Try to stick with one film at first until you understand how it responds in different conditions. Use some different developers TYPES to so you can compare the results (See "Cookbook"). Record what you are doing for each frame because without careful study, you are just wasting time and film. Record speed, exposure time, f stop, lighting conditions, development times/temps, and developer. Once you understand how B+W film and chemistry works, you should be able to get the results you want with a few films and a small selection of developers. Experimenting is fun, but only when you understand the experiments. None of your conclusions will be anywhere near accurate if you just try different combinations randomly and make decisions based on the results. Read a lot, ask questions here, and shoot a lot of film. Compare the results you get with what you want to get and then focus on changing one thing at a time to get those results.

 

Until you read those books, here is what I would suggest. If grain is the main problem right now, work with either slower films or "fine grain" developers, but remember, the finer the grain, the softer the image will appear. A slow speed film used with Rodinal (Pan F+, EFKE 50 or 25, or even FP4+) will give less grain and higher apparent sharpness than a fast film in a solvent developer. When you want to shoot Tri-X, try a solvent developer or a two bath like Diafine. Flat negatives are easier to print and you can always use a harder paper, dodge/burn, etc. to add punch if they print too flat for your taste.

 

- Randy

Vestal`s two books are excellent. "Craft" will explain the whole process in beginner-interrmediate terms. Adams is overly complicated and directed to sheet film use.

 

For now, I will say there is no one developer that does everything well. There is a choice between maximum film speed, sharpness, and fine grain. Rodinal is sort of toward the sharpness corner with a fine grain penalty. The more you dilute a developer like D76 or Xtol, the sharper the image, and the more prominent the grain. D76 used 1:1 a is very popular compromise. And you can make it yourself when Kodak pulls the plug. I use it full strength, home mixed chemicals, and no water rinse between developer and fix to keep the fine grain, and finish with Photographers Formulary TF4 fix which is alkaline, as is D76, compared to most all other fixers. So there is no reason for an acid stop bath. YOu will have to get to a pretty large print size to see the softness penalty.

 

Someone did a test here a few years ago and found D76 was the most stable of many developers tested including Xtol. You need to mix the original solution and store in one time use bottles so air does not get to it. A half full bottle negates the nice consistency of activity. This is the problem with D76, but each has it`s quirks.

 

The really important thing is to find define what qualities of the three are most important to you, pick one, and keep using it. Practice photography and don`t become a developer tester.

Matt, keep it simple. If you find someone is making images you like, find out what they do.

 

Your Rodinal can become finer-grained with addition of sodium sulfite. If you like the work of Sebastiao Salgado you may like Rodinal:

 

http://www.artnet.com/artist/672862/sebastio-salgado.html

 

As you know, Rodinal is a favorite of many fine B&W photographers...maybe you'd do better by playing more with it, rather than abandoning it. D76 is totally different, actively dissolves grain . Apples/oranges. To each his own.

 

If you're experiencing a lot of grain with a scanner's OEM application (eg Nikonscan), you might try a better application: Vuescan.

"If you like the work of Sebastiao Salgado you may like Rodinal"

 

John,

 

Can you verify this?

All kinds of developpers have been mentionned concerning french photographer S. Salgado.

Try D-76 diluted 1+1 or XTOL diluted anywhere from 1+1 to 1+3. Either one of these developers match up really well with Tri-X. Very good departure points for these combinations are available in "The Massive Dev Chart" at http://www.digitaltruth.com .

 

If you don't expect to use up a gallon or so of XTOL or D-76 in 6 months or so, then perhaps HC-110 might be a good alternative for you. Many users report good results with this combination, but I think it's too difficult to control at standard dilutions because development times tend to be on the short side. A couple of fellows I know don't like it much until it has been well seasoned and properly replenished. It doesn't sound to me that your needs will be met by this. HC-110 was developed with the news photographer in mind, I think. Rapid turnaround was, and still is, a paramount consideration for this application. A little extra contrast in the final result didn't matter too much when the final output is halftone newsprint.

Salgado's Brazilian, though he did flee to Europe for political reasons.

 

From personal observation, Salgado's prints do beautifully in huge enlargements, are not dominated by grain (there's probably plenty, I probably have ignored it)...those I've seen were said to be from Rodinal negatives...and they certainly LOOKED like that, although I didn't notice the famous Rodinal edge effect... so if Rodinal, perhaps sodium sulfite was involved.

 

I've not seen anything other than his African and Working images in person: Books don't begin to depict his images as well as they do Ansel Adams' work...I consider Salgado Ansel's equal, perhaps even Weston's.

"Salgado's Brazilian, though he did flee to Europe for political reasons."

 

He's been living and working out of Paris, France since 1975.

 

What would you call someone living and working out of New York since 1975 ?

Sorry, make that since 1973 so that would be more than half his life.

 

His biography:

 

http://www.sebastiensalgado.com/images/artiste/Bio.Salgado.FR.2004.pdf

Jack, I do understand your obsessiveness. This is, after all, the Leica Forum.

 

Who, other than a Leica nut, is so anxious to assert that he's "French" or to think they are entitled to contradict his various biographies? Me, I don't give a damn.

 

This thread was initially a discussion about learning B&W development, and it incidentally involved Rodinal: Salgado is often said to have a Rodinal connection. I've never developed film for him and I wouldn't believe anything I'd read that contradicted the prints I've seen...but it's not really that important.

 

The spectacular enlargements that I've seen in person do suggest Rodinal: I don't care that much, but I'm in a better position to speculate than people who have not seen many of his enlargements. The Salgado books are not vaguely adequate for this discussion.

 

Many profiles describe him as Brazilian, since that's where he was born, and they talk about his political persecution (he's a Marxist), since that's why he went to France. If you prefer to think him French, I'm happy for you. I have no idea what he thinks of himself, but since you obviously know him intimately, tell him hello for me.

 

He does spend a lot of time in NY, so maybe that's becoming his new nationality: New Yawk. Or maybe he's a citizen of the world. Who the hell cares?

 

What about the Rodinal question?

try the B&W KODAK darkroom data guide

John, why so agressive and why the big fuss ?

 

"contradict his various biographies? "

 

There is one biography, not many. And it's from Amazonas Images, an agency dedicated to promote one photographer, Salgado. And guess who founded it in Paris in 1994 ?

 

http://www.amazonasimages.com/

 

Please, a great deal can be learned about this great photographer with the two links I've provided.

"john kelly Photo.net Patron, aug 13, 2005; 09:49 p.m.:

 

"Jack, I do understand your obsessiveness. This is, after all, the Leica Forum..."

 

======================

 

Hmm? Sometimes it's difficult online to interpret whether a comment is intended as offhand humor. I'll assume this was intended as a jest. But let's stay on topic, please.

 

======================

 

Matt, you could accomplish everything you'd ever want in b&w photography with one film and one developer, altho' some compromises would be involved. It's almost always advisable to work with a limited variety of materials, at least at first, in order to limit the confusing variables.

 

Me, I'd choose Tri-X and HC-110. Tri-X adapts well to a wide range of uses. HC-110 concentrate has excellent storage properties and delivers results comparable to D-76/ID-11. Many, many excellent photographers have done exactly this for much of their finest work.

 

Whichever film and developer you choose, stick with those materials alone for 6-12 months. Same with printing papers and chemistry. Concentrate on exposure, development and printing technique.

Lex, sorry about your confusion. Yes, it's offhand humor.

...and yes, there are many Salgado bios. His earliest impact was in South America, obviously.

Two points:

1. No-one who shoots film cares about "gamma." Drop this digital junk. It's for monitor display only.

2. Who cares about Salgado's biography? "Matt" was asking about processing. Can't you dolts stay on topic?

I have used Tri-X/Rodinal but I rate it at 160 ASA and dev in Rodinal 1:50, 20 C, 8 minutes. This reduces the grain. As noted above you can dilute Rodinal with a 6% solution of sodium sulphite to reduce grain. This will be a slight loss opf speed but since light availability is not a problem then this is of no consequence. My prime reason for downrating film is to produce a lower contrast neg. I use Ilford Delta 100 almost exclusively, rating it at 50 ASA and devving in Rodinal 1:50, 20 C, 8 minutes.

Salgado doesn't now use Rodinal. There was an interview with his darkroom guy in a recent edition of one of the French photo mags - Chasseur d'Images or Reponses Photo.

 

Looking at <a href = "http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00D0tj"> this thread </a> it looks as if someone else read the same article and says it's Calbe A49. See <a href = "http://www.retrophotographic.com/PDFs/Calbe_A49_Instructions.pdf"> this link </a> for more details about the developer.

Steve, solid info! ...thanks! A lot of Salgado's early work does seem Rodinal.

 

A49 is essentially Agfa's Atomol, a developer for fine grained film . I wonder what that film is? Fuji asserts Neopan 400 is fine grained, for example, and the C41 version surely is.

 

http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=27

 

...JandC is a good US source.

 

For people who actually want to learn it can be powerful to inquire about and study the technical side of the work of great photographers. Salgado is an example, as was Ansel. Old National Geographics taught me a lot about Kodachrome Vs Ektachrome...and they labeled each shot by film type.