Criticism, cameras,composition,Coca Cola.

I've been a photographer for over thirty years so I think I know a

thing or two about the subject. They say "No one likes to be

criticized." Well, I do. Criticism is food for the hungry mind. The

criticism I've received on this board has helped me tremendously.

Posting photos here has refueled my fires.<p> Of course criticism has

to contain information to be useful. Statments like "you suck," aren't

much help. "Try scanning with a better scanner and with someone who

knows what they are doing." Is about as useful as "you suck."<p> Many

new photographers are so enthused about the miracle of photography

that they simply turn out snapshots. Grabbed photos that are of little

interest to the rest of the world. It's the duty of the more

experienced to assist the rookie in his growth.<p>Look at the

profusion of digital photographs on today's photography bulletin

boards. There are thousands of cats, millions of flowers and sunsets.

Digital cameras allow us to shoot volumes of photographs at no cost

with no waiting. They make it easy to produce photographs that could

put a cup of coffee to sleep.<p>Using a classic camera can produce the

same feeling of freedom. It's an ancient piece of equipment so simply

using it is marvelous. There's the danger. The guidelines of

photography still apply whether, it's a Diana or a Leica. The

photograph must be interesting, and interesting immediately !<p>Any

form of art is rife with controversy. That which is art to you may be

garbage to the guy next door. There was an exhibit of feces based

painting recently. People paid to see it. (!) We're all art critics

and we're all experts at what <i>we</i> like.<p> As a photographer you

must continually examine your own work. Are you improving ? Are you

becoming more interesting ? Is your "style" merely stagnancy ? Do your

photographs do what you intended ? Are you making up their meaning

after you see the print ?<p>

I enjoy this board tremendously. I feel like I know some of you

personally. The board is unique among photography boards. There's no

real camera snobbery here although I do feel that my Kermit The Frog

Camera is better than any camera <i>you</i> have.<p>

<I>I do feel that my Kermit The Frog Camera is better than any camera you have.</I><P>

 

Don't get too cocky about it or I'll go back to that antique store and buy the 110 Velveeta cheese camera I saw...it even looked like a piece of cheese!!<P>

 

Alan

One thing I have learned is that even though I may think I have a perfect composition (or as perfect as I can get it) someone out there will hate it. Of course what's funny is some photos I took that I hated for whatever reason, some people really like. Luckily I'm a member of a photo club so I can sort of compare notes with them.

 

I would like to share some of the photos I've taken with my classics for you all to critique but I tend to mostly take slides with the oldies for whatever reason and currently I don't have a scanner that will acccept transparancies. Once I can fit that the the budget, I'll be sure and share.

Gene If it helps you I Suck but I try. You are a wonderful photographer who has an eye that some so called artist would die for ... I learned something from you recently. Only post my best.

Larry<div></div>

"There's no real camera snobbery here although I do feel that my Kermit The Frog Camera is better than any camera you have."

 

Gene,

 

I think you are a terrific photographer and a lot of us here can learn a lot from you.

 

However, just as the last line in your post implies, you think (and you are supported by a handful of people who live in their own self created machochistic world of "I am a GREAT photographer, I can pick up any toy camera and still beat you pathetic lot" kind of attitude) you are GREAT.

 

You do not need any criticisms- constructive or otherwise. If things work for you the way they are, fine. I feel sorry for a bunch of promising younger photographers who seem to be unduly (or may be they wanted to be influenced that way- God help them!) influenced by this attitude.

 

All the best!

 

Vivek.

I'm wondering if people simply don't want to ahve to 'think' about whaqt they do. We have bread a society of people who want not only 'instant gratification' but also 'instant expertise', 'instant success' and 'instant talent' with none of the required effort, practice or thought that is usually demanded.

 

We see digital cameras sold on the basis of how many rotten shots you can throw away for no cost! You don't have to practice to devlop your skills...you simply keep shooting and shooting until you eventually end up with an acceptable image strictly as a result of the law of averages...or, simply pure dumb luck.

 

If you NEVER get the shot you want...don't worry! You can construct the shot you never took in your editing software...there is no need to get up before sunrise to get to some isolated spot with perfect light...you simply fabricate the shot in the comfort of your home and at your leisure...and nobody will know any different. Hey, it's the final image that matters, right? Not how you 'got' it! hehe!

 

I'll take a thinking photographer with a Kermit the Frog camera over a 'pot-luck' snapshooter with the latest digi-Wonder machine.

Some time ago there was a run of ill mannered comments in this forum. I posted a comment in the site feedback that I thought the problem was due in part to people using the "Unified Forum View" to surf through everything currently in the forums. The see some hot-button topic and contribute their two cents worth. Kind of a drive-by-shooting approach to community participation. There's probably not much to do about it. If you ignore them, they will likely go away. The ones who stick around will eventually figure out what the community is about.

"You don't have to practice to devlop your skills...you simply keep shooting and shooting until you eventually end up with an acceptable image strictly as a result of the law of averages...or, simply pure dumb luck."

 

I think a lot of skill is needed to use the Frog camera, to get the film scanned (all scanners suck that is a given) after it is developed and do all the post processing to be decent enough to be displayed here.

 

I have seen historic found film shots which had a few unexposed frames left and was used by the photographer who found the roll. Amazingly, by the miracle of the scanners that suck, 30 or more years between the first exposed frame or the most recent one looked EXACTLY the same on the crappy TFT display of computer!

I happen to enjoy getting constructive criticism as well - it's unfortunate that it can be

rather rare to get any. This board and RFF are about the only ones I've found worth

bothering with on any regular basis.

 

I do end up taking a lot of snapshots - with a 3 year old around, relatives demand them.

And that's fine so far as it goes, because despite our artisic hopes, the reality is that is

what makes most people happiest. They want to see the people they love in a simple way

that allows them to remember a given place and time. Though I do try to produce other,

more interesting shots as well

 

One of my better attempts lately - and one of the few times where it came out just the way

I visualized it in my mind at the time of shooting. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/

photopost/showphoto.php?photo=13308&cat=500&page=1

 

William

<I>"Statments like "you suck," aren't much help."Try scanning with a better scanner and

with someone who knows what they are

doing." Is about as useful as "you suck."</I><P> Agreed that someone aying 'you suck is

stupid. As to what I did write you seem to be taking take the position that: better

tools don't help and there is nothing to learn from anyone who has more experience and

better skills. Am I reading that right?<P>

 

I never said "you suck". That is purely your (mis)interpretation of what I said.

Gene, I don't think I've received a critique from you on any photos that I have ever posted here. Is silence a bad thing in this case? Am I guilty of uninteresting snapshots? Maybe.

 

I think if you take the time to thoughtfully critique others, then you will receive the same in kind. There will always be jerks above posting there own photos here that will come down hard on your work.

Hey Gene, the one thing I've noticed is that your musings on cameras and various aspects of life are really wonderful. They match up very well with your photos. Keep working on the post-scan toning.

Hi Gene. I too appreciate critiques on my work. Often times one will have some sort of emotional bond with an image they've created; perhaps a favorite place or person or such. Sometimes we need the reality from the eyes of others to break that bond and see our image as it really is.

It should be the law that in judging someone else work, that the positives should be pointed out along w/what needs work, and that w/particularly emerging artists, a stroke of encouragement given to give them hope. Nobody 6 months old runs marathons, and if somebody isn't well spoken/insigtful enough to give you specifics, then they shouldn't be giving anybodies work critiques.

 

When I started participating on these forums, I uploaded nothing, I didn't think was any rule that you had to in order to participate, a some folks calle me/suggested that I was a 'Wannabe' even though I've been at this for 35yrs+ in one form or another, what was hilarious was that after seeing the work of the folks who were knocking me, they turned out to be the worst photographers on these forums.

 

Skilled photographers will not initiate dialogue with obnoxius canards like 'you suck', I've never seen the best photographers around here tearing somebody down just for the fun of it. You'll never please some folks around here, I've uploaded all of maybe 8-10 images max, and now as opposed to being a 'wannabe', somebody suggested I was 'showing off', BOTH points of view were/are bullshit, I've always said I'll share what I know, so there are folks around these forums who'll twist around anything you do as chance for them to ruin somebodies day.

 

This forum is pretty free of Artists who can't wait to 'show their ass', which is why I enjoy participating on it, except for the 'troll' who a short while ago came in here and started up some acrimony, so I'll just say this, nothing is appropriate to criticism of anybodies image ever unless it has to do w/specifics, framed well/misframed, interesting/a bit boring, exposed well/blown out, flowing/stiff, too far to the right/left/up/down, good idea/maybe you need to rethink it,.............anything else is besides these types of comments is something else.

OMT...........I once got into a heated exchange w/a guy, about some concept in portraiture, I find out later that all the guy does is landscapes, nothing but, granted he has the right to debate me on anything, but I wish there was a rule around these forums, that before you critique somebody else's work, that you upload one of your images as an example of how to do it/better.

 

In holding up your work as yardstick in specifics and technique everybody can see, in relation to you telling somebody else what they need to do to improve not only helps, but eliminates some of these folks who like tearing somebody else down, but don't have a clue as to how to do it themselves.

 

And sure, you don't have to know how to do something to know that a particular image doens't work, but you don't have the right to be mean to anybody else if you don't know how to do it yourself(and I don't think you should be mean even if you do).

Alan regarding the velveeta camera that even looks like a piece of cheese - it is a pity that velveeta is not more like cheese.....

 

Gene regarding your Kermit camera I know what you means as i have bought more than one camera from the FSu that can be best described as 'small green and makes squeeky noises'

 

Seriously though, I personally agree that in order to criticise you need to put your own work up for criticism - I haven't yet done the latter so I don't do the former - but when I do I will take all criticism as it is meant - if someone says my work sucks it may not help me improve directly, but it sure as heck tells me I need to improve!!

 

Nick

I don't agree that anyone needs to put their own work up in order to criticise for the simple reason that not all good photographers are articulate critics, and not all informed critics are photographers. One thing that is useful if you want to talk about photos, IMO, is understanding where opinion ends and criticism begins.

<p>

I get a buzz from people telling me they like my work - it's a social thing, like enjoying the same food, music, etc, and it breeds dialogue, which is good. Criticism (of technique, of style, of content, whatever) is useful when it is positive and thought provoking - that also breeds dialogue, which is good, but it has fcuc all to do with anybody liking it.

<p>

Incidentally, if I were thinking about sales, I'd <i>only</i> be concerned about people liking it.

If people want to criticise or critique photos posted here, I have no problem with that, provided it is constructive and polite.

 

I would say though, that most people posting here are not doing so specifically to have their work reviewed - there are other forums for that. I think photos are posted here more for mutual enouragement, to actually get out and use the cameras, rather than let them become shelf queens. Often, a series of photos from a particular model or format posted here will cause one or two members to be lead into temptation and ultimately to fall off the wagon :-)

 

Art of any form is very subjective. Some forms or types of photography are not to my liking, and if I don't like a particular genre, I'll avoid critiquing the photo, although I may add a more general comment about the genre.

 

Paul

Gene, From what I've seen of your photographs you are a real photographer with a good eye and obviously great darkroom skills. Please don't let the odd bit of sniping bother you one iota. You have often proved your abilities unlike some of us. Ian

Criticism is fine. We have so little that we can discuss these days without a fist fight erupting, a few photographs between colleagues (and I'll offer that perhaps even as hobbyists, we are all here essentially colleagues at least in the pursuit of fun) should be freely discussable without animosity. However, if the criticism becomes exclusive - i.e. says "you are not good enough to post here" - that becomes a bit of a problem.

 

I occasionally take a decent photograph, but I far more frequently take a mediocre photograph. Therefore, I am pretty grateful to people to whom I have shown those mediocre photographs who have said, "Good but..." and "Shoot more" and then even "Show me what you've shot recently" later on a bit. That's the kind of encouragement that makes images better in the long run. And it makes better photographers.

 

I do agree with Gene that there are a lot of mediocre photographs out there, primarily produced by the easy production of such with digital cameras. I have a great desire to see quality images - a desire that goes unmet frequently. But I am not surprised, given the learning/instructional aspect of many of these forums, when I find them here. I am surprised when I see them in newspapers, magazines and art galleries however. That's more worrisome to me.

Gene, please don't get as bitter as my grand'grand'mother :) !<p>

 

Digital photography is still something new and suffers from a "fashion" disease. Trash digital photos and good digital photos will be sorted out quite soon !<p>

 

BTW look at <a href=http://www.ksurf.net/~photocam/>this site</a>, it's a good friend of mine, I think it's a very refreshing site where Kermit might meet friends in the "non cameras" and "cans and other cameras" chapter.<p>Now, go to a village summer feast of your neighbourhood, and have a nice fresh night !<div></div>

I am my most severe critic. I don't like to take a photo that has absolutely nothing to say. So, I take very few photos these days. Most of the few I do take will likely wind up in the trash. As I don't consider myself to be the best photographer around, I usually don't offer to critique the work of others, even if that work stinks up the joint. I have the option of just ignoring it and moving on. I do like to try to put up a phto once in a while, however, my computer and scanner skills are really awful, so I rarely try. I do enjoy this forum very much and like I said, I can always choose to ignore posts that don't interest me, without hurting anyone's feelings. Gene, I enjoy every one of your posts and the dialog you include with your photos is just great. Please folks,lets keep it friendly here. That's why I visit. Now can I have that Coca Cola?

Several years ago, before I joined photo.net, I was visiting Canada (several years after having lived there). I had my Topcoflex 6x6, a Nikon F2 and my Minox GL. While in the Canadian Rockies, inexplicably, the battery in my F2 died. I had no replacement for couple of days but several rolls of slides to be used up. The GL (the only camera with a working meter) was not available due to some mix up. I used up all my sildes without a working meter- morning, midday, evening, nightshots everything. I was pleasantly surprised to find most were properly exposed. Never liked any of my shots from there because I do not think I am fit enough to be a nature photographer. NONE of my photographs really conveyed/convey the awesome beauty and serenity of the Rockies. Too overwhelmed by the real thing to think anything of the images.

 

Here is one of those made with a Nikon F2, 25-50 f/4 Zoom Nikkor, hand held, about 1/125s, f/11 on Sensia. Commercial scan from a Kodak scanner.<div></div>

<<Look at the profusion of digital photographs on today's photography bulletin boards. There are thousands of cats, millions of flowers and sunsets. Digital cameras allow us to shoot volumes of photographs at no cost with no waiting. They make it easy to produce photographs that could put a cup of coffee to sleep.>>

 

I think this misses the point. People take these pictures because this is what matters to them. I see it as a positive. Bear in mind they don't aspire to be serious photographers any more now than they did with their Instamatics, Polaroids and 35mm P&S cams. They're learning photography and they're excited about the results. Isn't that how we all started?

 

If you look at the work of 'serious' and talented photographers who shoot digital, you see images every bit as good as we take with classic gear.

 

It's the photographer, not the equipment ...

 

Gene

Sandeha I don't agree w/you.................I can respect the opinion of an informed/insightful critic, better than that is the opinion of an indiividual who can do well/execute the very thing that he/she is suggesting someone hasn't done/doesn't know how to do.

 

In terms of a Photographer who isn't articulate enough to critique someone else's work, then he just can't, come can, some can't, but it doens't follow that those who can, shoudn't, becasue some can't, I agree that an informed critic doensn't have to be a photogrpher, but often as not that's not what happens around here, how many excellent critics and/or photographers anywhere commenting about anything engage in 2 word critique of 'that sucks'?

 

In a sense, when folks are just starting out, feeling their way, maybe at a fragile time, w/some vulnerability, the people who wade in w/their criticisms are in a way playing w/peoples lives, and often as not, their criticisms have no basis/foundation if fact, I've seen people here on several of these forums given absolutely ridiculous advice to people, and it's wrong. Photography is important to me, I'm very serious about, I was taught by people who where not good technically, but caring and considerate folks, I'd like to see the new folks here given the same chance.

 

If for the most part people were giving

specific/insightful/constructive criticisms that helped folks then I'd say yes there's no need to show an image in order to show that in fact, you have at least the slightest idea of what you're talking about, but I'm going to stick to my guns on this one, you should show an image as to how you'd do it/do it right, particulary on a very involved critiques w/longwinded and intricate suggestions as to how some of these folks would do it differently, so that folks can know that they're not being sent off on a 'wild tangent', which I've seen too many times on these forums in the past.