K mount (M) lenses on *ist DS - what's the real story ?

I have been a long time Pentax user. My father gave me my first SLR -

a K1000 - about 23 years ago and I have used constantly until

recently. In that time, I have collected quite a lot of K-mount

lenses. However, since the K1000 is an entirely manual camera, none

of them have any auto features at all.

 

When Pentax came out with their *ist line of cameras I thought I had

a perfect opportunity to transition to digital without re-investing

in all my equipment. Today, I took my trusty K1000 with a couple of

my favourite lenses (Pentax M 50mm f1.4, and Vivitar 17mm f3.5) to

my local camera store to try them out on an *istDS. However, no

matter what either the salesperson or myself tried, we could not get

the camera to even release the shutter - let alone do anything like

take a meter reading. The whole time - regardless of program ring

setting - the Av in the top LCD had a flashing "---". I tried moving

the apature ring, fiddling with every dial and button on the camera -

nothing. I read the camera manual on-line the night before and the

only thing that it mentioned was that use of the lens was possible,

but I saw no description of *how* to use it.

 

All I want is the functionality of my old K1000 - go/no-go metering

and manual control of the apature and shutter speed. Is that too

much to ask of a modern camera that costs almost $1000 ?

 

Someone please tell me I'm being an idiot for not mutting the

special "manual" incantation that is necessary to get the camera to

work (oh - and tell me what the incantation is :) ).

 

Thanks

 

Wayne

<p>From the menu, go to "Custom Setting," scroll down to "Using aperture ring," set to "Permitted." Set focus switch to AF if you want the body to prevent you from taking a picture without the focus-assist light being on, set to MF if you want to be able to trip the shutter regardless. Now you have two choices:</p>

 

<ul>

<li>Set mode dial to M. It doesn't show meter readings, but if press the AE-L button it will stop the lens down and set the shutter speed to what it thinks you need.</li>

<li>Or you can set the mode dial to P or Av and it acts like aperture-priority automatic fixed at the widest aperture (it doesn't stop down the lens to take a picture in this mode, so it doesn't matter what the aperture ring is set to).</li>

</ul>

 

<p>This is with SMC-M lenses such as the 50/1.4 you tried .. K_A mount lenses set to the A position work more intuitively, in P, Av, Tv, or M mode. A lenses seem to work the same as M lenses when the aperture ring is not set to A.</p>

Thanks Michael !! That's just the sort of detailed information I have been searching for. I'll give that a try.

 

So one more question:

 

Your response seems to imply that even with the program wheel set to the M position, you don't get full manual control of the camera ? The little thumb wheel that controls the shutter speed when you have the kit lens attached doesn't do anything ? Is that right ?

 

If that's true, then that's a real shame. Seems like a "software" fault in the camera. Make's the camera next to useless, though I suppose there's an exposure bias setting somewhere in the menus for overriding the default exposure.

In M mode, the thumb-wheel controls the shutter speed like you guessed. Then you can use the aperture ring on the lens, or if it doesn't have one or is set to "A", you change the aperture by holding down the +/-Av button while you turn the wheel. Two wheels would be nicer, but it's fast enough and the viewfinder helps you understand what's going on by underlining the parameter that is currently bound to the wheel. Sorry it wasn't clear.

 

By the way, you should check out Mike Johnston's column called "The K1000 of Digital SLRs" if you haven't already. As the title suggests, he evaluates the *ist DS through the eyes of a user like you (or me). We liked the K1000, we like controlling the shutter speed and aperture and focus, maybe we have some K-mount lenses we want to keep, and other than that we pretty much just want the camera to stay the hell out of the way. The column was still linked from the front photo.net page last time I looked.

So I went back to the store today to give the *istDS another try. I set the Custom/Aperture ring - permitted setting and it seemed to do the trick. However, the functionality I got was not what I expected.

 

With the Program dial in the 'M' position, I could adjust the aperture and shutter speed, but there was no metering. The focus aid was nice, but without TTL metering, the camera was useless. I took a few test shots and the aperture ring seemed to work - stopped down the image was dark, opened up it was bright. But I had no idea what I was going to get.

 

With the Program dial in the Av position things got a little better: The camera automatically adjusted the shutter speed according to the aperture ring position and it gave correct exposures for a variety of aperture settings.

 

So - is that it ? Can I only get any metering in aperture priority mode ? SURELY there should be 3 little under / correct / over lights in the viewfinder for the light meter. Is there really no metering in manual mode ? Say it ain't so, Michael say it ain't so .... :-(

If I understand the information that Pentax publishes on its Japanese website (I may not)...<br>

<br>

On conventional cameras the aperture rings of non-A position lenses talks MECHANICALLY to the camera. The *istDS uses ELECTRICAL contacts to talk to a lens. The *istDS has no way to share metering information with the those lenses, even though they can be mounted on the camera.<br>

<br>

There is a <a href="http://www.pentaximaging.com/products/cameras/lenses/compatability_chart.jsp" target="_blank">Pentax lense compatability chart</a> which might be of help to those trying to use older lenses with the *ist cameras. However, it is limited to valuations like: Recommended = 1; Works = 2; Limited Functionality = 3; Not Recommended = 0. However, it doesn't go into detail about what those ratings mean in practical terms.<br>

<br>

The M lenses are listed as "Limited Functionality = 3" on the chart.

Thanks for the clarification. So it looks like my worst fears have been realised - I can't use my old SMC-M lenses and expect the same basic functionality that I had with my old K1000. What a shame ....

 

Now I've got some serious thinking to do ...

Get the body with the kit lens and relegate my old lenses for occasional use?

Or abandon the whole idea of going with Pentax altogether and go with a different brand?

 

Seems to me that Pentax screwed up big-time for what seems like a trivial mechanical part. They were SO close ... this should have been a no-brainer for me to decide to buy their camera.

Mr. Young,

 

You could use a handheld light meter. It would be cheaper than dumping your old Pentax lenses (or dumping Pentax).

Yes - I could. But I like the immediacy of TTL metering. You really get a sense of what's going on watching that little needle waving up and down as you change the aperture and / or shutter speed. After a while you don't look at the needle, but you're aware of what it's doing and because the lens is wide open all the time, you can concentrate on composition and don't get distracted by brightness variation in the viewfinder, or having to press a button every time you want a meter reading.

 

I can fully appreciate that Pentax want me to buy new lenses - they are running a business after all - but to come so close to having a true "digital K1000" but not quite getting there is so frustrating!

 

Can anyone tell me that if I bought the kit lens and put the camera in M mode, if I get full control, just like I used to with my K1000 ? For one thing, I know the little thumb wheel controls both shutter speed and aperture and you have to select which with a button. That sucks. If I use the kit lens aperture ring, does it behave the same way an old lens would ?

 

My job involves some of the most bleeding-edge technological challenges on the planet (I design "computer" chips), and yet I sometimes feel like becoming a Ludite and abandoning all this technology. Sorry this is turning into a bit of a rant, but why can't they just make things SIMPLE! There were only three things to twiddle on my K1000 and I used it to take some of my best pictures. Now it seems you have to do digital (as in fingers) contortion tricks to get the camera to do what you want. Grrrr....

 

Can a *istDS owner please calm me down and tell me it's not as bad as that ?

Mr. Young,<br>

<br>

I believe the short answer to your question is "Yes". You can exert full manual exposure control with the *istDS and a modern Pentax lense.<br>

<br>

You can download the <a href="http://www.pentaximaging.com/products/product_details?reqID=3&subsection=digital_slr" target="_blank">*istDS manual in .pdf</a> format from the pentaximaging.com website. It explains, in detail, how to manually control exposure (go to page 138). With the "kit" lense, or most of the modern Pentax lenses, you can exert full manual control over the camera's exposure and/or focus.<br>

<br>

As far as I can tell, the only modern Pentax lens that does not allow FULL manual control of the aperture is the smc PENTAX-DA 40mm F2.8 Limited lens. It has a focusing ring but not an aperture ring.

Wayne,

 

It all comes down to $$$$. Piecing together some sort of support for old lenses through software is CHEAP since you already essentially have a computer in the camera. Doing the same mechanically is expensive. Add to the fact that the vast majority of purchasers of this camera probably will never use an older lens (actually they probablly will never buy ANY lens and just stick with the included kit) and you have lots of opposition from mgmt to making the camera more expensive and hence get less market share.

 

I just hope Pentax comes out with a more upmarket camera that does have this mechanical control.

The kit lens doesn't have an aperture ring at all, so that's out. I only noticed this when I put the kit lens (SMC-DA 18-55) on an MX body and reached for the aperture ring.

 

Wayne..I think your current understanding of what you can and can't do with the M lenses is correct. What I did in your situation is "trade in" my M lenses for the A versions via ebay. A lenses have both electronic and mechanical couplings so they work fine in all modes on all K-mount bodies (as far as I know). Buying an A 50/1.4 and selling an M 50/1.4 should end up costing you about $50-60 for example.

 

It does suck that it's not completely backward compatible, and I would rather use the aperture ring than the button-wheel combo too. I bought the *ist DS anyway because after waiting for years, I decided it sucks less than the rest of them. The Nikon digital SLRs have some compatibility with Nikon manual focus lenses, but as I understand it's no better than the Pentax situation..and Canon, Minolta, and Olympus have no legacy lens support at all. (Unless somebody using those systems knows better, feel free to tell me I'm talking through my hat.) Having owned the *ist DS for a while, I have no regrets..after all, nothing stops me from using a K1000 or MX if I want to.

 

I also hope Pentax introduces some more upscale versions of the *ist D at some point, maybe something a little faster with 8MP that would be on about the level of the 20D, but I'm not holding my breath. The only new product I've seen announced this year is the *ist DL which goes in the opposite direction.

Mr. Dickerson,

 

Thanks...I'm glad you mentioned the "kit" zoom not having an aperture ring. I went to the B&H Photo website to get a close-up look at the current range of Pentax lenses. All of the following lenses appear to have been made without aperture rings.

 

SMCP-DA 40mm f/2.8 Limited Autofocus.

 

SMCP-DA 14mm f/2.8 ED (IF) Autofocus.

 

SMCP-DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL Autofocus.

 

SMCP-J-FA 18-35mm f/4-5.6 AL Autofocus.

 

SMCP-FA J 75-300mm f/4.5-5.8 AL Autofocus.

 

DA 16-45mm f/4.0 ED AL Autofocus for Digital Camera.

 

SMCP-FA J 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 AL Autofocus.

 

The Pentax "Road-map" includes two more "pancake" lenses that I assume will also be made without direct aperture control. It would appear that users of these lenses will be have to control the aperture indirectly.

 

I think that most photographers who bother to purchase an SLR camera with interchangeable lenses have expectations of greater control - not less. While I recognize it is possible to work around the lack of an aperture ring I really wouldn't like having to do it.

The FJ lenes have apature rings. The *istDS allows complete manual control. Set the ring to A but you can control the fstop with the camer and the control dial.

 

This is also true with KA lenses.

 

The use of M lenes is more difficult. You need to use the lens like you are using a ME or even a spotmatic...

 

Set the camera to use the apature ring.

 

Set the camera to Av.

 

Set the fstop.

 

press depth of field preview.

 

press exposure lock.

 

take the picture.

 

I have a the kit lens and two FJ lenses.

As far as I'm concerned, Pentax made two mistakes. The first one was discontinuing the K1000. What's so hard about making new dyes? The second one was not coming out with a fully manual DSLR. I guess this is what we get when a company is run by shareholders. Forget about what customers want; just build them cheap. I'm amazed you can even use an old manual K-mount lens on their new DSLR's.