color problem with Chromira prints

Using properly calibrated monitors (CRT and LCD)my Epson 2200 color

prints are predictable and accurate to the monitors. However, my ZBE

Chromira Fuji Crystal archive gloss prints are very color

oversaturated (to the point of looking unnatural) compared to the

Epson 2200 prints. Any thoughts? Variables I should look at to

correct?

Are you using an ICC profile for the Chromira? If not, get one from the lab and use it. This situation is exactly what ICC profiles were designed for. If you are using good profiles for each device, prints from each device should be substantially equivalent.

Talk to the guy who is doing the printing.

 

The lab I use has a Chromira and they like the files to be in the colormatch color space.

He says that it works better on there machine then sRGB.

 

Also when I asked about a profile for it I was told that they are not available.

 

I like the way the prints look and they can even give me a very good B&W print about 90% of the time.

 

Michael

yes sorry I should have mentioned that I used the output profile of the Chromira in PS in soft-proofing mode and Chromira print was way oversaturated compared to the soft-poofing monitor display in PS 7.0.

My service bureau printer had no explanation.

Terrance at WCI told me that you do not need to attach a Chromira profile. Try using Adobe RGB for your profile and soft proof setting.

Have you spoken to WCI about the difference between inkjet prints and silver prints?

 

Inkjet prints like the 2200/7600/9600, are subject to metamerism. Under different

lighting, the prints look different. If you're relying on a 2200 print, remember that this

printer, while it uses the same inkset as the 76/9600, is close to being unpredictable in

terms of it's color output. While the 2200 can be profiled, I don't judge it as a printer that

is reliable for color print proofing. Using the same output profile, it can at time give

different results, even with all other variables nailed down.

 

Are you printing black and white prints? B+W prints on silver paper may look at turns

biased toward magenta or green, depending on the lighting in the room. Epson prints

(which naturally use color inks) will be all over the place in the same way but to a more

exaggerated extent because of metamerism.

 

Are you converting your image's profile to the Chromira profile before sending it to WCI?

Don't do this! The profile is for soft proofing on your monitor only! If

you are printing preflight prints, leave the files in their native colorspace. Converting your

files or tagging them with a printer's profile can (and will) result whacky prints.

 

And last of all; realize that not all processes look the same. Epson prints look pretty good

at 90 degrees to the viewer and may have a larger gamut than Fuji Crystal Archive. At the

same time, I prefer Crystal Archive prints for my images because I do have a hard black

(high Dmax) in most of my images, which doesn't reproduce well on the Epson

Ultrachrome printers. For this reason, I'm sticking with the Chromira for my prints, which

contrary to your experience has a very slightly smaller gamut in some colors than the

Epson Ultrachromes.

 

There's nothing about the Chromira or Fuji Crystal Archive that would make your prints

look oversaturated or all that different from the Epson - BUT - I don't know what your

prints look like. If

they're comprised of mainly deep, rich, light blues, the Chromira may not give you what

you've come to expect from ultrachrome. If your prints have a lot of Dmax areas, then the

Epson Ultrachrome prints may look pale compared to Chromira output. The Chromira is

calibrated each day to produce a linear scale, and is profiled to that daily, repeatable scale,

so I doubt that's the problem. Nor does it sound like your problem is

chemistry.

 

Could it just be that there is a problem in the way you are profiling you

monitors, or the room you are viewing your monitors or prints in? This make as huge

difference in what your prints look like, not to mention the fact that transmissive versus

reflective viewing leads to many disgruntled printer users - often without reason for

disgruntlement.

Help us solve your problem.

Thanks Doug and all for advice! I have identified the problem but don't know the exact implications of it. First of all, I have verified that both my monitors (LCD and CRT) are properly calibrated and the variance seen in the Chromira prints is not due to the monitors. Print output on Epson 2200 and prints from a stochastic press (CMYK) correpsond nicely/ "color match" to my monitors.

 

I did not use the Chromira profile as an embedded profile for the file, only for soft-proofing purposes in PS. The exact color variance (variance from from both my monitors and from my Epson 2200 prints as well) of the Chromira prints (looked at 5 different Chromira proofs) can be reproduced on my monitor by doing the following:

 

I start with a sRGB TIF (yes I am aware 1998 is preferable work space as wider gamut) In PS 7.0, View:Proof Setup:Custom: Adobe RGB (1998)check the Preserve Color Numbers (Intent Relative Colorimetric)

 

This then displays on my monitor an image that color matches the Chromira prints. So that seems to point to a difference in the way the Chromira is configured in handling sRGB and RGB 1998 files. If you uncheck the Preserve Color numbers box, then the monitor does not reveal the variance.

 

It would seem that for sRGB tagged files, this soft-proofing method will allow me to reliably see how it will print on the Chromira.

 

What does preserve numbers do? It is now remapping the sRGB as RGB

1998 color space but nor reassigning the numbers so then saturation is increased because colors not spread over a larger area and then Chromira converts to its profile but interprets an increased saturation??? Just speculating here.

 

Thanks all.

So try converting to SRGB and then printing to the Chromira and see if that works better.

<i>I start with a sRGB TIF (yes I am aware 1998 is preferable work space as wider gamut)

In PS 7.0, View:Proof Setup:Custom: Adobe RGB (1998)check the Preserve Color Numbers

(Intent Relative Colorimetric)</i>

<p>

Relative colorimetric intent is normally what you want to use when soft proofing; "use

black point compensation" attempts to compensate for the transmissive nature of your

display.<p>

Preserve Color Numbers doesn't affect the way the color is displayed on your screen.

<p><i>

This then displays on my monitor an image that color matches the Chromira prints. So

that seems to point to a difference in the way the Chromira is configured in handling sRGB

and RGB 1998 files. If you uncheck the Preserve Color numbers box, then the monitor

does not reveal the variance.</i><p>

The Chromira's color management works like Photoshop's. The Chromira

workstation software looks at the profile that the file is tagged with, and applies the values

in that file to the profile that the Chromira is set up to print with; in WCI's case, that's a

profile built to describe the gamut of Fuji Crystal Archive type C paper processed in RA-4

chemistry. There's are actually fewer variables involved in the Chromira's workflow that

there are when you use Photoshop to print to your 2200 - believe it or not. A good place

to start would be at home, nailing down the variables in your workflow and simplifying the

process.

 

<p>

If the files started off tagged as sRGB (like, say from a digital camera), soft proofing them

as you describe in Adobe RGB is going to match your 2200 prints if you're printing

through that space to the printer - which will definitely cause problems when you send the

same file to WCI. Since the file is no longer squeezed into the "adobe RGB" box when you

print, the colors will look oversaturated compared to your print from a 2200.

<p>

Here's how I print to my local printer to take a simple, no-doubts-left approach to

printing.( I don't have a great printer at home right now, but I'm hoping to get my hands

on an HP 8750. For an inkjet, the D-max is incredible.)

<p>

Start in your printer driver, and turn off ALL color management. If you're on a Mac, you can

do this by bringing up the print dialog box and selecting the ColorSync drop-down menu

item. Next, set printer color management to OFF. Period. The 2200 driver in Windows has

a similar feature - set it to off as well.

<p>

Contrary to what might seem like the logical thing to do, when printing from Photoshop,

it's actually best to let Photoshop do the color management from the working space to the

printer's space. The next section details how to do this.

<p>

Choose Print with Preview in Photoshop (7). Notice at the bottom of the Print with Preview

window that there is a checkbox for "Show more options". Select it, then choose "Color

Management" from the drop-down menu.

<p>

In the source space area, make sure the profile your file is tagged with appears. It should;

the file's space is the default. In the destination space area, select the profile appropriate

for your printer and paper.

<p>

This should eliminate any options that could be causing color problems in your prints at

home - and it'll help you nail sown some variables that could cause unexpected results

when you send that file off to WCI.

Thanks to all for suggestions and advice!

 

I will double check all settings in all parts of my works flow. I do not want to get into identifying or "pointing the finger" at a particular Chromira service bureau. But one variable I have identified is that there is significant color variance from one Chromira to another. I am comparing two recently received 8x10 proofs from two different Chromiras generated by the exact same TIF file with the sRGB tag and same 300 dpi resolution. There is significant variance in saturation and slight hue variance.

 

So one factor here, and it is not the only factor operating, is seems like USE proofs for precise color control is the way to go! I used the Chromira proof, make an offsetting adjustment printer file, (sometimes -30 on Hue/Saturation Master), print that on Chromira, and the result has been very good!

Doug, thanks for the suggestions. All the variables you mention are worth considering and being aware of for everyone. In my particular workflow and setup, they all check out ok. My monitors are in sync not only with output from Epson 2200 but "right on" to stochastic press prints as well.

 

I want to clarify that I am not implying any lack of diligence in calibration profiling and maintenance on the part of ANY Chromira service bureau, and I also want to point out to forum readers that the saturation differential I discovered in the PS soft-proofing mode of sRGB versus Adobe RGB 1998 may not be a cause and effect relationship as far as the Chromira color variance goes but simply happen to show that kind of color differential. And the work around of simply making some color adjustments in PS is successful.

 

But I feel that I may have assumed a level of control and color matching accuracy that is not quite correct. The TIFF sRGB test file I sent to the two different Chromiras to be printed on Fuji Crystal Archive gloss was exactly the same file in all respects (300dpi, same color profile, etc.) and yet there was a significant color variance in the two prints. I am talking about a real "apples to apples" difference and not just ambient light, etc. It would seem that suggests some variability in Chromira configurations and setup and some resulting variability in output between different Chromiras. I would expect that a given well-maintianed Chromira would be very self-consistent in color, contrast, brightness, etc.

If checking "preserve color numbers" gives you the exact result as the printer, that implies that whoever is doing your printing is not converting your file to the chromira profile, but instead just sending it raw to the device. That's literally what "preserve color numbers" means.

"But one variable I have identified is that there is significant color variance from one Chromira to another. I am comparing two recently received 8x10 proofs from two different Chromiras generated by the exact same TIF file with the sRGB tag and same 300 dpi resolution. There is significant variance in saturation and slight hue variance."

 

This is not necesarily a fault of one chromira or the other. Keep in mind that the difference of chemistry and the current plots of each of the associated processors play a big role in color as well. Daily setup of the printer takes this into account, but there will still be variances as every processor and working tank is different.

 

Different emulsion batches as well as paper and chemistry storage methods can shift paper.

 

Another thing is the LED setup of the printer. Some labs tend to adjust paper setups differently, shifting warming or cooler. We adjust our LED printers down to a .03 tolerance, however I always lean to the warm side rather than cool.