The M8 and your fathers oldsmobile

Whatever images are produced by this camera, you must wonder what the management

team has been thinking. This camera will not attract any new consumers to the

leica brand. They are selling to existing customers only.

 

While I understand that Leicas are really about about hobbyist collector types,

you would think that they would want to expand their customer base. This camera

clearly doesn't even attempt to lure no owners.

 

The crop, images size and other limitations - while acceptable for film cameras,

are really a handicap in the digital world. Where does this thing fit in for

new customers?

 

Its way bigger than digital p&S's. Can't be used for high speed shots, doesnt

have the resolution to produce large prints, and the lenses are enormously

expensive. I have seriously been thinking of purchasing a Leica to use as my

35mm film rangefinder but (perhaps a mp), as a first time purchaser of Leica, I

won't consider this kit in the running. My canon Eos 1ds is far more camera

than this and I purchased it new in 2002.

 

 

I mostly shoot mf and lf film and love to spend money on this stuff, but what is

the compelling reason for a potential new customer like me? I have seen the

leica r back images that certain people were raving about and found them as

impressive as many higher end dslr's. I certainly didnt see anything to compel

me to upgrade and change brands.

 

In summary, I just dont see what is so great about this kit other than perhaps

the high ISO. What do you think?

 

George

oh year the fathers oldsmobile bit was about Oldsmobile doing the same thing for so many years. Then, while in tailspin they came out with that stupid slogan "this isnt your fathers oldsmobile", when their customer base was dying out and new consumers were moving on.

 

Hopefully we wont see Leica with a similar slogan. "This isnt your fathers leica".

I think the answer to your question is in the photographs (or files, if you will) that are produced.

 

One new user of the M8 has offered rapturous reviews of the results.

 

http://leica-users.org/v33/msg00375.html

 

Remember, we are dealing with a camera that is trying to conquer the Everest of handheld photography, its predecessor film cameras. If the results are, indeed, as stunning as reported, customers will follow.

 

Steve

<camera will not attract any new consumers to the leica brand. They are selling to existing customers only.>

 

I suspect there are photojournalists who prefer to use a rangefinder for some of their work but, until the M8, couldn't do so because of editorial requirements for high-quality digital output.

 

These would be "new customers" in the sense that they are not now using Leica rangefinders professionally, even though they may have done so in the past when editorial schedules permitted the use of film.

 

Photojournalists who needed SLRs in the film era might still favor DSLRs, but those who favored rangefinders will now go back to their old work habits.

Obviously it doesn't appeal to you so don't buy it.

<p>

Nobody understands what Leica management is thinking.

<p>

<i>The crop, images size and other limitations - while acceptable for film cameras, are really a handicap in the digital world</i><p>

I have no idea what this statement means. A crop from 35mm film would not be acceptable in a film camera or did you like APS?<p>It's not a P&S camera, the sensor is big so of course it's bigger than a P&S. What does "high speed shots" mean? I find rangefinder focusing faster than autofocus in low light enabling me to shoot faster.<p><i>doesnt have the resolution to produce large prints</i><p>Where are you getting this from? The 11 megapixels of your 1Ds is enough but the 10 of the M8 is not? The pixel size is not that much different, I bet you'd never be able to tell which was which in a print.<p>I will never buy the M8, it's expensive, the lenses are expensive, and I prefer SLRs but I don't understand half of your complaints. They are targetting a different set of people, obviously a set that you are not in.

"Not your father's Oldsmobile" was about right. With the exception of the Aurora 4.0, the

Olds cars that came out from the early '90s right on to the end were underpowered plastic

looking pieces of crap. Your father's Oldsmobile, on the other hand, had hundreds of

horsepower and could do a wheelie with minor modification.

 

Nice troll though.

If you want to talk about expanding their product to inctice new owners, you can always look into buying a digilux.

They are however small and capable cameras. Be it what it may, you won't see me lugging a giant-sized DSLR and couple giant-sized zooms around the world in this lifetime.

 

That is one of the defining points for many.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Leica cannot directly attract new customers even if they released a $1000 camera.

 

Why?

 

The reason is that a photographer has to make a choice first. Do I want to use RF's? Or SLR's? RF's have certain limitations, eg. can't use lenses beyond 135 mm, no life-sized macro, etc.

 

Hence the market is always limited by the characteristics of an RF vs an SLR. No matter how much marketing $$ they have, they can't change the basic fundamentals.

 

But for those who have chosen to shoot rangefinders. What choice do they have in digital? RD-1? M8 looks far far better than that.

 

All your other complaints-- "way bigger than digital p&S's, Can't be used for high speed shots, doesnt have the resolution to produce large prints, and the lenses are enormously expensive"-- are true but don't make the M8 any less of a worthy camera.

 

So what if the camera can't fit in your pocket. They're not competing with Coolpix and Powershots. Certainly not on price.

 

So what if it can't be used for high speed shots? This is not a Canon 1v with a power drive, and RF photography is about shooting at the decisive moment, not hammering out shots at 4 fps.

 

So what if the resolution is only 10 MP? 35 mm can't be realistically enlarged beyond 20x30 anyway, beyond that you should be shooting MF/LF.

 

So what if the lenses are enormously expensive? Compared to L glass, it isn't that expensive. There are tons of 2nd hand lenses around, and they have extremely good resale value.

 

If you seriously want to purchase a Leica, you have to buy into the RF concept first, and stop comparing it to the 1Ds or the Powershot. M8 ain't either. But it will still sell enormously well.

 

I'll list you some compelling reasons:

 

* It's a very good camera, a beautifully handcrafted piece of machinery.

* It will weigh much less and be much smaller than a 1Ds

* It will take superb pictures, probably the best there is for 35 mm

* It will take good pix in low light, and you don't need IS for low shutter speeds

* It will retain resale value

* It will take certain pix that Powershots or 1Ds can't take. But there will also be many types of pix that it can't take.

I would suspect that there are a lot of pros out there shooting DSLR's because the market demands digital output, but they still have their film Leica M bodies along with a set of lenses for personal work. There never was a good reason to sell them because those Leicas looked like mine, beat to crap, brass showing through chrome, with lenses to match. Fondlers and collectors don't tend to buy them, even for cheap. They're already paid for and written off as a business expense. When you already have the glass suddenly the body doesn't look all that pricey.

The resolution comment was way off. 10MP is plenty to go as bug as y ou need. I printed

many 20X30's that look STUNNING and I shot them with a 4MP D2h. 10MP is PLENTY and I

for one, would not want more.

 

If you like RF shooting then the M8 will be the cam to get. I like my M7 for its size, quality

of build, quality of lenses and the joy of using it. When I used to own a Canon 1ds it was

so huge and heavy I never took it out. It ended up getting dusty while my Oly E1 went with

me. Also, the 1ds was horrible at high ISO. I would bet the M8 would provide better quality

files than the original 1ds.

 

After recently buying an M7, this is all I shoot with now, and have been for the past 4

months. Love it, and if I ever get the $ I will go for an M8 as well.

"Whatever images are produced by this camera, you must wonder what the management team has been thinking. This camera will not attract any new consumers to the leica brand. They are selling to existing customers only."

 

I think you are wasting your talents here because none of us is on Leica's board of directors. Send Leica your resume listing all the floundering companies you've revived and all the documentation for the market research you've done, and who knows, maybe they'll fire Dr. Spichtig and install you as the new CEO before it's too late :-)

<p><em>Whatever images are produced by this camera, you must wonder what the

management team has been thinking. This camera will not attract any new consumers to

the leica brand. They are selling to existing customers only.</em></p>

 

<p>Not in the least bit true. I've never owned a Leica. But I will be buying an M8 as soon

as its available simply because it's the perfect solution to some of my needs. And there's

plenty more people like me.....</p>

 

<p>BTW - conventional marketing wisdom is that when releasing a new product that

competes with long-term core values of your existing product line, it's always existing

customers who are the hardest to convert. And the best thing about innovating within your

product line is is that it wins you new customers.</p>

 

<p>Leica stands to benefit on both counts.</p>

Ill ignore some of the bs comments. I forgot to mention I currently own 2 rf cameras. I have a konica hexar rf and fuji gx 6x4.5. Right now Ive been primarily shooting 4x5 with my arca swiss. I also shoot with a Rollei 6008iaf. I dont see a need to choose between style of camera. I shoot with them all. and if you think that 35mm looks great blown up to 20x30 and over, I suggest you take a strong look a larger formats which are far superior for such large reproduction. 35 or psuedo 35 is great for quick, unobtrusive shooting. It certainly hsa it limitations, like every other format.

"Ill ignore some of the bs comments."

 

LOL! Translation: anyone who disagrees with me.

<i>Ill ignore some of the bs comments.</i><p>

So do you care to address any of the non-bs comments or are you just trolling?

George, what changes would Leica have to make to get you excited about the M8? I think it's looking pretty good, but I wish the US Dollar were still trading at it's pre-2001 levels versus the Euro.

 

You bet the EOS 1ds is far more camera: How's your back and shoulders holding out?

Thanks for the link Steve Ege, the poster (Ted Grant) is no lightwieght, and is the type of shooter who would be a potential Beta tester. I know for a fact that the Leica Canada Rep. always gets him the first units of any new product.

 

If Ted Grant is that ethusiastic about the M8, it's a real good sign.

I think you've got it wrong. I'm 63 and never owned a rangefinder. My first camera was a Minolta SLR and I currently shoot Nikon DSLRs. However, I'm on the list at three dealers for an M8... this will be my first Leica. I would not have bought a RF if it wasn't for the M8.

I also want to thank Steve Ege for the link.

 

Ted Grant probably has 50 years of Leica M experience. It was very interesting to hear him talk about the handing characteristics of the M8.

 

I think the M8 will be a successful camera for Leica.

about not being on the board with leica. In my professional capacity, I happen to sit on a number of boards so I may have an idea of how management works. As to thinking this is trolling, I guess some consider it heresy to suggest that beloved Leica may have missed the target.

 

Im not the brand loyalty type. Its a tool and not a status symbol. Every camera I have purchased has met a certain need that my other cameras lacked. I certainly didnt purchase anything because of the brand name.

 

Please lay off my back and discuss the idea of selling product to existing clients without a strong committment to obtaining new customers.

 

If Leica doesnt address the modern market, they might end up like Voigtlander. Who knows, in the next decade Leica may be owned by a chinese concern. I can see it now - the Leica MSG, with special anniversary lenses. Not that Im against chinese cameras. I have a fotoman 612 which is very well built.

"vinays moronic comments"

 

Seems like I was dead-bang on when I said you consider any opinion other than your own to be BS. If by some far-fetched possibility you really do sit on any corporate boards, I pity the other board members who have to put up with the boorish spoiled-child way you try to ram your opinions down everyone's throat.

"...but I wish the US Dollar were still trading at it's pre-2001 levels versus the Euro."

 

The Euro went into circulation Jan. 1, 2002 at 1.16 Dollar to Euro. Fell to 0.8 then rose after the start of the Iraq war to over 1.3. My GF since '97 is Spanish. Spain is not "cheap" anymore. 8*(

How many realize that beyond the incestuous world of this forum and very few other places, the vast majority of people have never heard of Leica? And those that have think it's a Bulgarian supermodel.

A collegue wanted to see the camera I always carry with me: "Ah, a Leaka". He also pronounced Porshe a Porsh, and Siemens Cmens, not Zeemens. Pasadena, Tx is a place where a pick=up truck is a fashion accessory. Forgive my spelling, I can't find my glasses.