Dual Rating System

It seems to me that there are quit a few threads going on at the same time

about the rating system. What is it that we want out of our rating and

critique system. Is its purpous to see how far up the ladder our photo can go

or is it so we can recieve feedback and learn from our fellow peers. I thought

it was the later. Now I posted a soultion to this problem in a couple other

threads and recieved no comments. And at the risk of redundency this is what I

suggested. Why can we not have our current system as is and at the same time

have, as Philp suggested, a group of more professional photographers rate

also. The later of which will be the ones selected for the TRP and such. If I

am correct than this may solve the cheating problem sence if you know a more

professional group are going to rate your photo than it may be a little

embarresing to have say a 7/7 from them and a 4/4 from those better able to

rate it. I think that true photograpers, amature or not, would rather have a

learning experience from all this. If this is our objective than then why not

strive to that end. If this sound like a crazy idea, then so be it. Its the

best I can think of.

 

Yours Truly

 

Berryl

With regard to the 'professional photographers' who rate, this site used to have a group of experienced raters who rated each and every submitted image.

 

Their task has long been discontinued but it is conceivable it might be revived. Often the more experienced photographers/raters who comprised the group of raters would reach quite different opinions as evidenced by their ratings numbers than the general PN raters.

 

I forgot what they were called, but a member surely will post that.

 

Asking for 'professional photographers' is not necessarily asking for much. The only qualification in the US for being a professional is selling one's work. In Germany, one must have the equivalent of a fine arts degree, or at least in times not long past (when I was up on things over there), so a 'professional' photographer to a

German should have a different significance than to an American.

 

I think asking for a 'professional' opinion is outside the site's scope. This site has some very capable amateurs as well as some 'pros' in pseudonym.

 

John (Crosley)

I changed the title from "Duel" to "Dual". I hope that is more correct but many times feel the whole rating process becomes a "duel" between one individual and a group of others.

In principle this sounds like a good idea, but who will choose the "Professional Raters"? With the recent rate of postings, will they be able to keep up? I think with the volume of postings, leaving comments/critiques would not be possible. Given this assumption, can they be provided a different set of radio buttons to choose from for giving a little more feedback on an image? Again, would they have the time for this?

 

<p>

 

I throw this out as an alternative. Select a large group of experienced photographers who are willing to rate. Give their ratings more weight than a regular member. In order for them to maintain this "experienced" label, they must also provide critiques on a set number of images per month(?). Just an idea.

1) "It may be a little embarrassing to have say a 7/7 from them and a 4/4 from those better able to rate it. I think that true photographers, amateur or not, would rather have a learning experience from all this. If this is our objective than then why not strive to that end." ? Berryl Bader

 

Why not strive to that end, indeed ! But through a rating, anyone can learn something, yet not as much as with an in-depth comment. Still, better than nothing, I guess some folks would still be able to learn "something" from a rating or a set of ratings submitted by photographers that they respect. So why not... But I disagree that rating a piicture 4/4 would embarras the rater assuming a pro or such would rate it a 7/7.

 

2) "I think asking for a 'professional' opinion is outside the site's scope." - John Crosley

 

Well, for now it is, yes. But... the site collects all ratings submitted, and whether some people like the photos of the "pro photographers" or not, fact is: there are some "pros" here who rate pictures. To include "professional opinions" as part of what the site offers to those who want them is just a step away. A pro, if he had to do some professional critiquing, would probably take it at heart to write thoughtful critiques, and would probably expect to be paid for his time if he is asked to critique works on more or less regular basis. So, my view is that "professional critiques" have a value and a price, and the site could "hire" pros to write critiques. The critic would be paid a fee, say 15 USD for 20 pictures, and the site could take say 5 or 7 USD out of 15 to provide this service. I don't know, just an idea...:-) And yes, I'd gladly volonteer to critique more works for some warm cash - if anyone would care, that is...:-))

 

3) "I throw this out as an alternative. Select a large group of experienced photographers who are willing to rate. Give their ratings more weight than a regular member. In order for them to maintain this "experienced" label, they must also provide critiques on a set number of images per month(?). Just an idea." ? Robert Woodward

 

Why not. Another good idea, imo. But can you imagine the number of people who would probably argue that this or that person isn't any more entitled to this "experienced" label than the next amateur, etc...? :-) "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - that's what you get for an answer as soon as you start sounding like an "elitist". :-)

 

I would personally have no problem at all to acknowledge that I am a far less experienced and far less talented studio photographer than Emil Schildt for example, but I suppose there are many folks who think they know more than Emil does about studio photography... So, where and how will there ever be some consensus on this matter, that's my question...?

I've always wondered how many Elves actually rate photos. I don't expect a reply to this question of course. But here's a proposal I've posted quite a while ago somewhere... Since many ratings are anonymous anyway, why wouldn't the Elves be allowed to rate pictures under "anonymous Elf names" - such as "Elf 1", "Elf 2", "Elf 3", etc...?

 

If anyone thinks that an elf's opinion is worth a little more than John Doe's opinion, then he'd perhaps be glad to see the rating(s) an elf left on his work ? That would, I think, fit berryl's request, without bruising any ego.

 

What people may disgree with - or not, perhaps ? - is to see an elf's rating have more weight than another opinion.

Marc, through the current rating system you may not learn much, and I argee that a critique would be wonderful, but how many of those do you see. And how much weight do you give to them. "I like it" may inspire you and has a place here for we all need incouragement but as to how informitive it is, well, not much. Like I stated before in another thread I am more interested in how many view one of my photos than any rate given. But if a more professional, "And by that I did not mean a professional" were to rate and critique with an informative hand then I would be all ears. Now would it be nessesary to pay these so called more professionals, I do not think so, why, because given the amount of good photographers we have here at PN, "Myself most suredly not included" would it be that hard to put together a team. And I mean a very large team so as not to put to much a burden on any one person. Now lets face it, this is a compatition, and if you want to play that game then lets have someone better qualified to do it. Whould you want your kids piano recital judged by a bunch of say meat cutters or construction workers. I really do not believe so. However along with the competitive side there is a learning side and who better to teach us.

That does not mean we have nothing to learn from amatures, because lets face it, maybe 95% of those who will ever look at your photo will be an amature. For me that is where the amount who view my photo is more important than the rates given. It means my photo was interesting enough for them to look at it. So everything has a place, the question is can they all be conbined to form a system that will at the least be more useful than what we have now.

 

Berryl

"Whould you want your kids piano recital judged by a bunch of say meat cutters or construction workers."

 

"Judged" - no. But commented on, why not... For a "judgement, I'd rather have the opinion of say, the 5 photographers that matter the most to me.

 

"That does not mean we have nothing to learn from amatures, because lets face it, maybe 95% of those who will ever look at your photo will be an amature."

 

I think we have a lot to learn, all of us, from amateurs, especially those who have a keen eye of course. When I produce pictures for a client, it's most of the time for a publication, which will not end in pro photographers' hands.

"Is its purpous to see how far up the ladder our photo can go or is it so we can recieve feedback and learn from our fellow peers."

 

Good question. The most concrete function I've heard for the rating system is to determine which photos belong at the top of the ladder (the TRP). Perhaps if everyone understood that we're not *supposed* to learn from the rates we get, we might get fewer complaints about the system ("How am I supposed to learn anything from a number?" seems to be one of the most common complaints in this forum). I do believe it is possible to learn from rates--particularly if you receive enough un-"manipulated" ratings that you can believe they truly reflect the common opinion of most PN members--but I don't see education as their primary purpose.

 

Personally, I would like to receive *ratings* from all PN members, but *comments* mostly from experienced photographers. I would be entirely in favor of having some of my $25 membership fee go toward hiring experienced photographers who would be able to offer professional critiques on photos. In fact, I suspect that the promise of periodic guidance from an experienced photographer would encourage a lot more people to pony up a membership fee. It probably wouldn't be cheap to lure professional photographers away from their cameras for the several hours daily it would undoubtedly take to critique all the photos that want critiquing, but I think the idea is worth investigating.

Because I am a beginner, I have been reluctant to rate or comment on too many photos. I do not totally feel justified in telling someone how to improve their photos when I am at a stage where I can't even improve my own. I am here to learn how to improve and, in principle, the ratings and comments aspect of this site seemed like a great way to do that. To a large degree I think that has worked, but in an indirect manner. By that I mean I learned more paying attention to the photos that rated poorly or had no or few meaningful comments. A direct comment would be greatly helpful, true, but the lack of them can speak volumes also. To me it simply says that picture just doesn't have "it" as it has inspired no one to comment or rate high. There are a lot of photos I look at here and just don't like them but, because I'm a beginner, I don't always know what would make it better either. Since there seems to be no real way around mate rating, why not eliminate anonymous rates altogether? An icon could be added next to the raters name that identifies them as "pro", "intermediate" or "beginner". That way, one could look at the raters portfolio and decide for themselves how much weight to put in the rate or comment they gave them.

Shawn, Good thought on learning from unrated or poorly rated photos, but if you want icons next to peoples names designating them as amuture, beginner, or pro, well, Man you are opening up a whole new can of worms here. Who will designate who. And by what criteria. Oh Boy I would not want to be involved with that one.

 

Berryl

Berryl, My thought would be just to let everyone rank themselves by what their gut tells them they are. Yes, there will be some people who, according to the bulk of the PN population, have incorrectly categorized themselves but most people probably will not. This would also help you to decide how much weight to put behind a rate. Here's what I mean, you get a 3/3 from someone who categorizes themselves as a "pro". You click on their name and you determine the work in their portfolio to be crap. Since their assesment of their own work is crap, you then simply disregard their rate and/or comment as you do not want to accept advice or criticism that drives your work in a direction you do not want to go. A comment from a "beginner" who rates your work high and whose work you appreciate would be worth more, to me anyway, than a pro who rates low but has a style you are not after.

I personaly am in favor of eliminating anonymous rates but if you think about it Shawn once this is done one could simply click on anyones name and look at their work without any icons involved. And if the Icons are self given it really would not have any merit anyway. Some photographers who are really very good however also very modest could give themselves a lower icon. There are quite a few people who I presume would not want to blow their own horn so to speak. Do you see what I mean. We really would not be any better off. The idea of eliminate anonymous raters though has always held my favor and would go a long way to improve the current system.

 

Berryl

You wrote: "I do not totally feel justified in telling someone how to improve their photos when I am at a stage where I can't even improve my own."

 

I have been a photographer for 18 years as a pro, and "I can't even improve my own" photos either. And I bet 99% of the photographers here are in the same boat. :-) So, what's the difference ? The way you see is not the way I see, and is not the way they see. Posting a comment is just sharing with others the way you see, which is unique. What it will be worth to your reader depends on him, not on you. So feel free to just express what you see, feel and think. Cheers.

Marc, I agree with everything you said except the part about your photos not getting any better, That my friend I find hard to believe judging from the quality of your work. And this just goes to prove my point about good photographers who are modest.

 

Berryl

"Marc, I agree with everything you said except the part about your photos not getting any better".

 

Well there might be a little misunderstanding here: perhaps it's because of my way to phrase things in English. My work is of course (well, hopefully), getting better, over time and overall. But I ment that there are thousands of images in my stock that don't satisfy me, but for which I wouldn't be able to identify a way to improve them. One of the reason for posting images here is to find out from other people's opinion. And therefore I am by no means "modest": I am actually kind of reasonably proud of my few best photos - like most of us, I suppose. I just try to be realistic about the weaker shots, which I have a countless number of. :-)

Professional photographers and/or professional critics?

 

I know many professional photographers and while most tend to be superb business people many have learnt that doing enough is good enough, acceptable to the client and therefore very profitable. Creatively they rarely have to extend themselves and would have trouble offering a useful let alone compelling critique. As far as I'm aware there are no professional critics contributing to this website.

 

What do people here mean by "professional" or "more professional" when applied to this specific context, photographers and critics?

Interesting post Berryl, but complex thread, not sure if I read or remember all of it.

 

I agree that the term professional is probably gonna be the hardest thing to define, but it needen't be. As someone said above, in Germany you need the a fine arts degree to be a pro photographer, and in U.S. you just have to earn enough to live. So, it seems the term professional cannot become a useful term of global reference on this site, rather just a term of endearment, perhaps.

 

The guidelines for structuring these initiatives may be discussed and debated withitn reason here, but ultimately we are just brainstorming for a privately run site.

 

Cheers.