Nazi-era Leica: fake or original ?

I've got on hand a full brass and black leather Leica, serial# 10642, marked

with the 1936 Olymipc Games logo, which is the Olympic rings above the nazi

eagle with the date 1936, and under the eagle the words Olympia.Berlin.

The camera is in a dark brown leather holster also marked Leica.

I have seen a Russian fake once, but it was only an empty box without mechanism

and its holster was of black imitation leather.

 

This one is fully functional, so if it is a fake, it is not a cheap one. It

came along with a brass medal of the 1936 Olympic Games, in its box, that also

looks original. The formal owner is German and says it comes from a relative of

his. The camera and holster look aged.

 

This is what people say about this camera:

 

"It's a fake made in Russia"

"It is an original and it is worth a fortune"

"It is a Kriegsmarine model with Olympic Games logo"

"It is an original Leica but the nazi markings are fake"

"It loks original but the serial# does not match"

etc etc.

 

When I ask people how they can proove what they say, the answers I get are the

following:

 

"I know that stuff very well"

"My uncle had the same one once"

"If I had an original on hand I'd show you"

 

which doesn't proove anything. I am not a specialist on old cameras, I am a

collector of antique guns and militaria, and the above comments are what I hear

all the time from thousands of so-called "experts" on nazi artefacts at the gun-

and militaria shows.

I just want to know wether this camera is a fake or not, and how I can be sure

of its origin (book references, pictures, real experts advices), in order to

avoid discussions.

 

thanks very much in advance for any help.

 

Picutres are posted with this message - I hope they will help .

 

Marcel

Take the lens off, is the rangefinder cam round or triangle shaped? The shutter release looks weird to me but I'm no expert at all.

looking more into it I say it's a fake. Serial number doesn't match shutter speed dial looks wrong and shutter release button has teeth that will eat your finger.

hope you didn't pay alot for it.

I've owned several "escaped-from-the-tractor-factory" leicas. Including one with the same markings but black fittings and nickel knobs.

If I still had it I could've checked the serial number for you, it would probably be the same.

 

I can't say I've ever seen that type shutter speed adjustment dial though.

 

I hope yours works better then mine :)

 

 

Rick

Rick my feeling is he already got the answer once, he just didn't like it.

It's an obvious fake, and you needn't even bother looking at the details: Leica simply never produced a camera with such engravings on it - it's a concoction arising from the minds of modern Ukrainian or Russian forgers working with FED's and Zorkis. Thousands of these have been cranked out in recent years, typically with that same all-brass look (something else that Leica never did). If you're still in doubt, some further research will reveal to you the other tell-tale signs, such as the rangefinder flange.

Sorry - by "flange" I meant "cam" :-)

Of course it's a fake. If anyone else wants one, here it is on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-II-Vintage-Rangefinder-35mm-Camera-Olympic_W0QQitemZ320024285171

 

I bought one a couple of years ago just as a fun ornament to add to my collection of cheap and weird cameras. You're very lucky if it actually works. The workmanship, especially inside the back, is crap. Most of them are so poorly made you can't get film in them. Kitsch garbage, if you like that sort of thing.

Fake russian Leica copy.

Thank you all for your responses, I note someone says that Leica never made full-brass cameras, and even never produced any with that logo. Well perhaps the logo was added later on, when the exact number of cameras needed was known ?

 

I also note some answers such as "of course it is a fake". That is the kind of answer I heard many times, but what I asked is HOW it can be proved. By just saying that it is fake, you don't prove anything.

If someone comes to me with a fake old gun, I can tell and show exactly why it is a fake or a copy. I will never say "of course it's a fake" without explaining why.

 

To the people who say "serial# does not match: does not match what ?

Is there somewhere a list, or a book reference where the serial# are registered ? Actually serial# are intended for that purpose.

 

The inner part looks ok to me, and the camera accepts a film without problem. I don't know about the look of the shutter speed button, all I can say is that it resembles that of the modern Zenit cameras, and so are the teeth on the trigger button.

Being professionally aware of production problems, I would say that if this is a fake, it must be an expensive one since it is fully functional, including the picture counter.

I'm glad it's not mine anyway, and I'll relay the responses to the owner.

Thank you all.

All one has to do is sight along the top front edge of the rangefinder housing. If that edge is a straight line all the way across it may be a genuine Leica. If the line jogs out to go around the VF window it is definitely a fake made from a Fed or a Zorkii. The RF follower of a real Leica is a roller; that on a Fed or Zorkii is a triangular fixed piece. Genuine Leicas did not have a threaded recess for fitting a cable release to the shutter release button. If that isn't enough to prove it is a fake then we have a case of confirmed denial. It should also be noted that all these fakes are made from the early Russian copies that did not have a slow speed dial. There were some of the older Barnack Leicas that were relegated to the Nazi military but the overwhelming majority were IIIc's; some of which had the improved ball bearing shutter (KugelLager).

Zorkis and FED's are perfectly useable cameras (if not suffering from some defect), so just because the camera works doesn't mean it's "expensive". A fully functional excellent-condition Zorki-1 might be worth at most up to $70 to $80, though you can certainly get good working models in uglier condition for a lot less. You asked about serial numbers - yes these are freely available on the net, for example at www.cameraquest.com. In fact, there are dozens of resources on the web which fully explain how to identify a fake Leica, including previous posts to this forum. Again, www.cameraquest.com has a page that discusses fake Leicas, too.

<i>I also note some answers such as "of course it is a fake". That is the kind of answer I heard many times, but what I asked is HOW it can be proved. By just saying that it is fake, you don't prove anything.</i>

 

It can be proved by five minutes with Google and a quick trip to the rangefinder category on ebay. It's nobody's job here to do simple homework for you.

If the posessor of one of those items wishes to believe it is the genuine article despite the concurrence of several knowledgeable parties to the contrary, then I would suppose it is his right to indulge his ignorance as well as his delusions. Apparently encyclopaedic references are all that will convince him, but that too seems unlikely. There are at least four categories of fake nazi embellishments that were never used by Leitz. In fact, most of the genuine engravings regarding particular departments or organizations were applied by the receiving agency and not done at the Leitz factory. One only has to refer to Laney, Sartorious, Lager, Giunto, or any other authority for information regarding the non-factory engravings.

It's a Zorki C as is the one in the later post. The Zorki 1 of FED 1 would make a better fake but they are worth more than the Zorki C in their original state. The use the C for the fakes because nobody wants them since the top of the camera was raised to accomodate a flash connector. If a fake is worth more than $30 it is only as an oddity

Adding to the fun is in the past decade or so, many forged Civil War, WWI, and WWII military acceptance stamps have been advertised and sold so that anyone can stamp their Nikon F3, or K-bar looklike with Nazi, USSR, or Confederate, Imperial Japanese, British or Union markings. I would be very leary of any relic that didn't have a clear (and well documented) ownership history, regardless of what marking is on it. Even serial numbers mean little to someone who turns out fakes for a living.

To Dave Whoami

 

This is not new. I viewed several Liège-made pinfire revolvers stamped with CS or CSA while they bear the post-1877 proofmarks. At the end of the Civil War, thousands of guns were sold to large dealers, and only a few thousands were sold back to Europe for the French-Prussian war of 1870. A great number were still listed in the 1910 catalogs. In the early 1950's, when demand for Civil War memorabilia began to increase, some smartasses started to gather all the European-made old guns they could find, and had them marked with CS or CSA, in order to triple their values as so-called Confederate guns. They did not know however, that Belgian proofmarks indicate the production period, and that marking their guns was not a priority in the Cofederacy. The result is that ALL European-made Civil War era guns found on US soil and bearing those marks, are spurious, even the good ones, unless their origin can be prooved by documents.

I was told that there is now a factory just outside Prague (Tcheckia) where one can have any German WW2 daggers, bayonets, belt buckles, engraved with anything one wants. Some items look very real even to specialists since it appears that they have found the original moulds and machines used in the period. They can also supply any kind of helmets, with all the side decals one's wants. Approximately 98 % of the nazi militaria that are offered at shows, is fake, including SS uniforms cut by hand last week out of original wool and cotton rolls found in another old factory.

Since I am not an expert on old cameras- far from - you can now understand why simple answers such as "of course it is a fake" do not satisfy me.

Fortunately a few people here have given detailed answers and have convinced me.

Thanks again to all.

 

Marcel

In the 1960's MAD Magazine had a spoof on Stuckies, the Southern gas station/souvenir/candy places on highways. The cartoon was I believe labled "Stickies" or something similar. It showed a mini-ball factory behind the station, making civil war mini-balls as a spoof.

Sellers of fake Leicas almost never show an image of the roller cam area. A few fakes actually have an added roller cam, to trick folks who think it has to be real, because their is a roller. Folks want to beleive this stuff is real, adding features to fool folks makes a good con. The Russian camera folks at the Russian camera board at www.beststuff.com know Zorki and Fed.

I t is difficult to understand why Marcel insists on further quotation of authorities when it is universally understood that Lager, Laney, et al have documented their findings regarding the Leitz production records. Lager in particular shows photos of the known military markings on wartime Leicas -- most of which were engraved by the receiving agency -- not Leitz. The camera in question has the interrupted top line of the RF housing. Perhaps a Fed or Zorkii could have a roller follower installed but replacing the whole top housing would be another matter.

Several years ago enterprizing Indian and Pakistani brass artisans flooded the curio market with copies and fantasies of the Brunton Pocket Transit, many of which were stamped to imply that they had been made for the CSA notwithstanding that the Brunton was not invented and patented until the '90's. There was also the mythical (British) naval stores warehouse in India wherein a bonanza of compasses, sextants, spyglasses and other scientific items were purported to have been discovered. I had to leave an antique emporium in a hurry when the owner became infuritated when I pointed out that his $1000 sextant was an inoperative fake. Yet, I heard later that he had sold it to a collector of scientific instruments. People who want to believe they are getting something special seem to be determined against all advice that they might be pursuing (or have already bought) a spurious item.

I spoke too soon about the FSU camera it was made from. Upon closer examination it was made from a later model Zorkii that had the massive housing over the RF 7& VF. No Leica was ever made in that configuration so that alone should settle the matter. All RF Leicas up through the IIIb had the same basic configuration. Then with the IIIc the body was lengthened and the top plat/RF-VF housing was one piece.

Im in the ukraine at the moment and i have seen one for sale on a street selling souvenirs,there are all kinds of things medals ,cameras,coins.

I looked at one exactly the same as yours the other day,i was suspicious but now im sure they are fake,cant be this much old stuff about,especially as they are selling to tourists.