Website ripped off

John - what you have described may very well be true - the problem is that no amount of justification or defending will convince anyone that that is so - all we can do is take responsiblity and our hits and move on, and try and do as much damage control as possible along the way by owning up to it.

 

Something to consider is that it is logical that many would be sceptical and even upset, as it is common practice for photographers to takes other photographers materials and use them as their own - and becoming even moreso with the web where so many great images and websites are out there available for the taking, and the aninimity that can be presumed because it is a world wide web (and who is going to notice) allows them to get away with it.

 

If you are following any other forums, you will know that there have been several outright ripoffs of website design, wording and images recently - and there is a long post in one Pro forum where dirty tricks were used in redirecting some top end photographers website addresses to the offending parties website. He got caught and had to deal with it and didn't do so gracefully and as a result has no respect from many well known photographers - even if he may be a good guy or a good photographer. - - - That is where I am coming from.

Robert I understand that completely, its that in all regards each situation is different and mine is none of those as you can see. to do things as you ahve described is clearly with harm and/or intent in mind obviously. It is that very departure I have tried to explain as calmly and as honestly as I possibly could - whereas I do feel that both decent concerned folks have a right to know, and I have a right to explain... That all.

 

now I really have to get to sleep,

 

Thanks

 

jf

FWIW=For What It's Worth

The bottom line seems to be that you had every intention of going live with a stolen site, then, had your web designer been competent.

 

Thanks to Eric for being persistent. Good manners aren't always a virtue, and rudeness is not always a vice.

This horse has been beaten to death, ground up for dog food, consumed by fido, divested

and deposited in a flower bed, ... and still smells like you know what.

 

Beyond the images, the plagiarism began with the lifting of ANYONE"S site with the

purpose of mimicking it. Design work is also protected under the copy-right laws. Adding

this ID or that info to it is a clear indication that the design itself was being accepted to

use as one's own without written permission.

Kevin and Mark: That is not the case either, there were some changes that I wanted to make, but, I repeat I liked the basic simple look and wanted to go from there. And incidentally, there is not a copyright on a black background and a gray border with button things at the top - you both know that. You and those like you seem to feel it reasonable in predicting that the site was finished, somehow approved and ready for operation by me. You miss the mark completely - if you choose to follow that path, you and those like Eric will not ever be satisfied... as Brian or several others have explained.

 

Thank you,

 

jf

Kevin, Marc, thanks. I was feeling so lonely...

 

John, perhaps lift someones image and change it a bit in photoshop and then call it your own, is that okay with you too?

Mr. Falk,

 

Although I believe that most of us do understand the situation that you were in and that you may not have had bad intentions, the actions you took in downloading Jeff's site were wrong were wrong and they can't be justified. Jeff spent thousands of quid developing his site and copying it in any fashion is just wrong, there is no point that can be made that could justify these actions. Now most of us can understand why you did what you did and using another site as a reference is common and most of us accept that practice as standard, but again as a reference.

 

I have been reading this thread and several others for days now and didn't respond because I had hoped that someone would get to the main issue and several people have mentioned this issue but it keeps getting drowned out by other stuff. I believe that the thing that bothers most of us the most is the fact that when Jeff contacted you or acctually your wife, you weren't there to witness the conversation and how someone reacts to a 2 am phone call is different than they would react to a 2 pm phone call, so you don't know exactly what Jeff said and in what way or tone. But you immediaetly tried to shift some of the blame to Jeff A. in what you said about being professional, etc. etc. etc. so to me it appeared that you were trying to deflect some of the blame for the situation to Jeff, and you continued in additional e-mails and posts to say "well Jeff did this and Jeff did that ....." and that is why I think you are seeing such a strong reaction to the situation.

 

If you had said "you know what guys I screwed up and I know what I did was unacceptable and I really and truly apologize to Mr. A and I will fix it as soon as humanly possible" and left it at that this issue would have been over a long time ago and alot of people would have respected your actions. Instead we got well my web designer kid did this and Jeff A did this and so on. By trying to put some portion of the blame on the guy you took something from, you took this issue in a direction it didn't need to go.

 

A simple apology and fixing the problem would have ended this issue days ago and saved everyone alot of time and frustration.

 

Michael

It's not a matter of ever being satisfied or not. As stated above, it is not acceptable to lift

someone else's site to make it yours. You quote this element or that element as not being

proprietary ... BUT it is the assembly that makes up a proprietary design. You already said

you asked for informational revisions, but never mentioned the most important revision ...

don't copy Jeff's site in any way.

 

I am redesigning my site right now. I am using a white background, drop shadows on the

images, and a certain type treatment ... none of which are proprietary as individual

elements. However, while quite simple, the design personality of how those elements are

used together makes up the proprietary property.

 

Straight lines and curves are not proprietary design elements, but use them to design a car

that looks exactly like a Lexus and see what happens.

Bingo. Michael Ryan spoke for me. I,as somoene who tries to see the best in people, want to believe that this plagiarized site was a temporary site awaiting completion with images actually created by Mr.Falk.

 

The problem I have now, which has me seeing less than the best in him, was his unwillingness to fully apologize and take responsibility for his actions. Every single apology was a backhanded apology, pointing at Jeff A. as the co- villain in some way- as if!!!! If he had stepped to the plate and copped to the error, without putting the blame elsewhere and accusing Jeff of being less than professional I believe this would have blown over. For me personally there is no defense for his handling of this situation, and it is this behavior and not the plagiarism that defines my rather negative opinion of Falk. This is, I also believe, the genesis of the furor among my fellow professionals.

Meg, I do appreciate your comments. Please understand that I clearly did, do and have taken 100% of the responsibility and actions toward resolving the situation; and notwithstanding anything else I am sorry that it happened as it did - for sure.

 

I have only made one appology to Jeff and it was that weeee hour of the morning -- per se' it has been repeated, transposed, extracted from etc over this course...

 

I am also sorry for some feeling that I have attempted so called backhanded appologies to Jeff. To that regard I also feel I have a right to my opinions that were simply directed at how he handled it with my wife and all, clearly it was inappropriate regardless.

 

The two topics are mutually exclusive of one another, but I guess I have to understand to some degree why it keeps getting in the mix either way...

 

John

John.

 

"I have only made one appology to Jeff and it was that weeee hour of the morning"

 

An open written apology, here, is in order in my opinion. Not just to Jeff, but to all that admire and have defended him here while he sits in the background like a gentleman. Your talk is full of inconsistencies and loop holes. I have to say, in the least, that after all this I'm still disappointed.

 

You've again claimed it is the viewer, the reader, that has inferred your words as "backhanded stabs at him" with your first explanation speech you call an apology. Have you walked your entire path of life with this practice, not being accountable for your words and actions and looking around for others to point the finger at? No one's accepted what you've said here as a sincere apology for downloading and swapping his images out of his site, a site that is not your intellectual property, and placing your images into. We don't want to hear, nor care about, what you liked or what you didn't expect...

 

"and I liked the simple nature of the look, I did not expect the full download, import or whatever it is that did this."

 

Why did you carry on editing your material into it, and requesting your bio and prices? We don't want to hear your sniveling...

 

"I don't feel that Jeff's call to my wife at 1:50am in the fashion he did was reasonable, or in the spirit of professionals."

 

In the spirit of professionals? Whatever John. If my site was ripped off, the last thing I would consider is time differences. You'd be getting a call from me when it's convenient to me, not you. I can't believe you're harping on about this. Furthermore, all chances where lost with your smarmy closure...

 

"In closing at this point, I would however take it as a high compliment that one of the recent posts here clearly states that I have still left one of Jeff's photos up on the site. Well that is mine actually, and I am flattered by its' appreciation..."

 

You smug little man, I lost it here. How dare you come here and feel you can walk out with an award of flattery from us after everything written about you prior? Can you understand why we are angry? I have zero tolerance for theft and injustice. And even less for people when cornered won't full out apologize and take ownership of their actions. It was a mistake. Big deal, we all make them and most of us know how to clean up after ourselves. But instead, you shrug your shoulders and deflect the route of the problem to kids and ignorance. Shame on you.

in a sad sad wa he reminds me of those guys you see busted on the cop shows !

they just got caught speeding trying to outrun the cops and having drugs on them etc..

when they get busted they start screaming OUCH your hurting me OUCH what did I do I

didn't do anything !!!

those aren't my drugs in my pocket I haven't seen those before !!!!! I wasn't speeding !!!!

why you hassling me !!!!

then when handcuffed in the back of the car they start talking tough like yeah I was going

to kick your @$$ you better watch out !!!!

what's really sad is either they believe they didn't do anything ?? which means they are

mentally whacked !

or they know they do wrong and really think denying it will make it go away or something

??

 

 

bottom line facts for me to decide his guilt!

 

his URL and Jeffs site on it ??? hmmmmm (kinda like the guy with drugs in the pocket)

 

he didn't mean to suck it ALL in !!!! (what like part of it would be OK) (kinda like the guy

speeding to get away from the cops ? guess that makes it OK in a thiefs mind)

 

and then the threats telling jeff to watch out dont smear my name (yeah well your busted

and we know the truth so now its time to act tough to cover your sorry self)

It's not legal or moral to rip off design and web code. It cost a bundle to write original

code for a proprietary site (as I well know, having just paid for mine). Even replacing

images with your own in a proprietary site is ripping off the code which Jeff paid for. It's

like a photographer plagiarizing a magazine layout, putting his photos in it and using it

as a sample.

 

So, IMO it isn't an issue of how an apology was delivered or not, it's about protecting the

hard work and capital investment of artistic and technical creativity.

John, I think you may as well bow out at this point; you've said all you need to say on the matter, and if you and Jeff are content with matters as they are now between yourselves, you do not need to continue defending yourself publicly against a bunch of monkeys with nothing else to do but drag out pointless threads for their own entertainment. If you and Jeff have resolved things, then it's nobody else's business anymore.

Kai, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on this issue, but why reference other folks

as "monkeys" who make their living from this kind of work and wish to make it clear such

actions are not acceptable? John continues making excuses for an inexcusable action, and

people here are loathe to let him get away with it.

 

This ripping off of web sites and a number of other rampant plagiarism is reaching

epidemic proportions, and it's pissing off lot of people who paid their hard earned cash for

theirs. I caught someone using one of my images in a magazine ad, that's why I'm hot

about this issue.

Whilst this thread has really been beaten to death now it is important for people to understand that you can't just take everything you find on the web and use it for yourself. Using someone elses web site even if you insert your own images is not the way to go about things and is not legal. There is a huge difference between designing something with a similar look and feel and just ripping the code off.

Marc & Stuart, et al.,

Yes, fine, we all know theft is bad. We can talk all we like about that. But this thread isn't about that. It's going around in circles over a single case of theft with a guy that has explained what happened, and has apparently already apologised to the only person that was directly affected. He doesn't owe everyone on this board an apology as well. Or is it that he should, lifting from another thread, apologise and then disembowel himself? Or should the kid who stupidly copied the site in the first place be forced to come into this forum to be eaten up as well?

 

As for monkeys, well even a monkey can see that this thread is achieving nothing but allowing a few alpha males to blow off some self-righteous steam. Seems like the affair was settled all to quickly for them, before they could get a chance to sink their own teeth in. If you want to discuss web-theft, fine, but I don't see any more blood coming out of this particular stone. Perhaps the best way to settle this now would be if Jeff Ascough came back in here and declared the matter settled.

 

Forums sometimes become filled with frustrated lawyers and judges who are only too happy to jump all over someone without all the facts (or given all the facts, to just disbelieve them outright), only too eager to jump in and fight someone else's wars. It's ashame it happens here so often. Must be the age group or something.

Kai, if I could be complacent just like you, and allow matters like this left alone, and not call people on their accountability, then I feel this type situation and this kind of thing would happen more often. I receive emails daily on this matter from behind the scenes. Regular contributors are pissed and disappointed and have encouraged my steadfastness. John, in our face, has insulted this forum and the profession. I could care less what you feel Kai, as you've established your level of integrity and intelligence with the word 'monkey'. You claim that it's been beaten to death yet you jump right in and re-stoke the fire when all that is really left for closure here is a proper apology from John.

I am anything but complacent and would be supremely pissed off if someone claimed my work or web design as their own. If it ever happened to me, I have to admit I'd be really surprised to get as much as an apology from such a thief. In this case, it seems that an apology has already been made; the site is down, the explanation for what happened sounds pretty genuine/plausible. The matter IS dead, as far as the rest of us are concerned.

 

I think its terrific that so many people will defend IP rights here, but its important to recognise when closure has been achieved. Save the relentless battle for the real thieves - the ones who do it unscrupulously, intentionally and don't bother to respond to their accusers at all. I just don't think this particular case warrants quite the diatribe its been getting. The most guilty party - the web designer himself - has probably learned the lesson of his/her life over this, and no doubt is nodding in agreement on that if he/she is reading this thread from the sidelines. Anyway, as I said, it's up to the two key protagonists themselves to bring this to a close now. Jeff seems to have already bowed out of the thread days ago. Nothing to do with complacency.

And here we have Kai swooping in: "Enough you monkey-alpha-male-age-specific-bunch-of-losers"

 

For someone who'd like to see the issue closed it sure seems like a lot pot stirring.

 

Just a thought Kai, you might want to ratchet down that matronly instinct thing, it's an unattractive quality for a feminista...

Spot on, SP, that sums it up beautifully. Could have saved me a lot of typing. Cheers.

Kai, why are you getting involved in an 8 day old thread? You seem to be guilty of everything you criticize me for?

 

Don't assume silence from Jeff means anything.

Eric, the thread might have started 8 days ago, but was active right up to the time I posted. It's not like I dug up some inactive thread from a week ago, is it? If you don't like every Tom, Dick, Harry or Kai coming along and having their 2 cents on an active thread, then may I suggest that a public forum is the wrong place for you? Or is there yet another PN rule I don't know about, like "don't contribute to a thread unless you receive a written invitation from a clique"? Sheesh!

"You seem to be guilty of everything you criticize me for?"

 

guess so...

 

How are you being a positive contributor to this problem? It was at a point where I think it would have been much better if you just waited like everyone eles for either John or Jeff to close this thread. But you carry on being a "bunch of monkeys with nothing else to do but drag out pointless threads for their own entertainment."