Is there a future for PN?

When I became a member here back in 2002 (paying dues from the first day) site

have many good things to offer with very weak competition. But as it was said

before you have to run very fast to stay in the same place.

 

Back then, these few years ago, PN was sort of self controlled community with

many very talented members and quite a few well know names. Mob had very little

to say and have practically no influence as weak photos were literally taken

apart by many knowledgeable members on the spot right after a try to put it on

top in the gallery by friends and family. Lack of anonymity worked very well.

What kind of person is one who is afraid to stay behinds his/her words? Or rate

for that matter. Nick names were less in use and often a person who used one was

attacked from time to time for doing that. What kind of person feel shame of

his/her real name? Especially photographers, or artist who wants his/her work to

be known and associated with him/her.

 

In last few years we see huge changes coming. Site wide opened doors for

everybody, encouraging posting crap for critique hoping to make money on

advertisement and click's counts. Many serious photographers left. No more big

names. Who is going to tolerate and waste time reading mostly critique posts

from a person who bought first camera a few days ago, rushed to post results

here and what is even worse, became an expert overnight. Also I have seen very

good photographers literally insulted by opinions left under their work by

people who have no clue what they are talking about. Same in forums - chicks

became smarter than hens. Many genres got under serious attack. Who are

attackers? Photographers? No, people bored to death in their work office afraid

that boss could see a nude on the screen, housewives and househusbands afraid of

child entering the room. Mine is better and bigger become popular too. So if I

photograph street or B&W all color nature shots are boring. Site build for

photographers became a social affair soap opera for all of those who have

nothing better to do and try to kill the time.

 

I learned a lot here a few years ago. It was very easy to find good work, easy

to follow opinions and critiques written by know legible photographers. What

left now from that? Not much and it will take too much time to find what left

from the past. And this site was a best of the best in its kind on the net.

 

Also folders management. Those days when storage is no problem any more one just

cannot dump thousands of photos without option to manage the subfolders and

sequence photographs to make it look decent and usable for visitors. For so many

years PN did NOTHING to improve that but offered more storage. If you click on

photographer large portfolio thousands of photos will start showing at once.

Good luck for those with dial-up. As an example look at the pbase. Why they can

keep improving so much all the time? Why they have so many subscribers and do

not cry about money and do not put advertisement on photographer pages? In fact

they keep increasing storage and benefits for the same money. If anybody need

WOW etc you can get it too. If not you can erase the post. Here was a different

aim. The best of the best in photography. What happened to it? Sold to Amazon,

Goggle, Sony, HP for a penny per click so masses are needed?

 

Rating systems leaded many sites to have problems. I am not sure if anybody so

far came up with any good solution and many sites aborted this controversial

feature or went down when trying to be stubborn. What is PN doing new ? Keep

shrinking the scale making this looking as a total joke? POW is another

controversy. With claim of being no contest it is so often showing very bad

taste that one start to have serious doubts about elves or whatever you call

them. From tad-bits in past discussions they seems to be a part of first

unofficial society of self admiration when site started. First and much stronger

than mate-raters who could not stay in shadow. Always had power (to suggest

their options), always stay in shadow like middle-ages secretive society elves

seems have very strong believes in their authority as nobody can confront them

face to face anyway. But what is an use of discussion when subject is chosen by

amateurs (I know name elves sound better) without even a good taste in

photography not to mention expertise?

 

Lately I was using PN only as a dump place to storage some of my photos for

deferent purposes. I was hoping that some good changes will come soon. But I do

not think that is a case anymore. And again competition is running very fast.

All of those points above are purely theoretical for me as now I see not much

use of PN anymore. Like Nikon lost to Canon (my private opinion as a former

Nikon lover) PN lost so much lately to competition that chances to catch-up are

very, very small if not a zero. How sad.

Hello Mark.

 

Thanks for making those remarks. I would have to say we are in the same bought in many respects, and I agree with much that you have written above.

 

Like many others who joined PN (what seems like) ages ago, but really only a couple years ago, my participation here has dwindled almost to NOTTA. I honestly can't say for certain what has caused this to happen, but there are a few reasons I think which once combined have caused me to slowly lose interest in PN.

 

I have 3 main concerns. First, the lack of change or stimulation.

 

When you first become a member here there is stimulation in bucket loads all over the place. Everything is new to you, even the most basic idea of sharing images online is exciting, let alone receiving feedback from photographers around the world. But as months and years pass, things become mundane. There is no change, no more stimulation... no interest. Interfaces aren't upgraded to "keep pace" with the rest of the net. Bryan himself has suggested in the past that keeping the site the way it is has become one of its main attractions so to speak; a sort of "collector-antique" among the other more advanced and complex photo sites. PN's rather ancient design and functionality is a good thing if you consider its ease of use, apparently.

 

Second, the decline of quality images and comments.

 

Self explanatory I think. Personal opinion or fact? I don't know. But it seems comments have become harder and harder to come by, regardless of one's own efforts to reciprocate. The 'old greats' leave from boredom, and newbees continually flood in. This could be a natural, balanced cycle of replenishment. Or this could be an imbalanced cycle, with more "good" photographers leaving the site than coming to it. It is impossible to know for sure.

 

Third, my priorities and goals as a photographer.

 

I have realised over the past little while how helpful photo.net has been in pushing me forward as a new photographer, especially when I first joined roughly 3 years ago. Most important to me are the relationships that are made here with "friends", continually commenting each other's work and learning together* is invaluable to me. Conversing with such 'PN legends' as Dave Nitsche, Jim McNitt, Renee Asmussen, Todd Laffler or Walter Tatulinski (to name a few) as if we knew each other was an awesome experience, and incredibly helpful. Most of those photographers listed have either left, or rarely contribute here these days - to my knowledge they are overly fet-up with the rating system and the way things are run.

 

Once you are established as a photographer, and you've had your fill of learning experiences here and elsewhere, you have to question the worth and use of a) your time and money, and b) your talents. Is it worth spending hours a day on this site, sharing your ideas.. photos, comments, ratings, critiques.. and even arguing in the forums, for $25 a month? I answered NO, not really. This is a virtual world, and I feel at this point in my career my talents and efforts are better off shared and spent in the real world.

 

 

My conclusion is that PN as it stands does not grow on most people, for the most part at least. It withers over time. From the get-go it is perhaps the most helpful, easy to use and exciting photo site on earth, but as time passes that excitement fades and eventually there comes a time to stop complaining and.. well.. leave. And let the newcomers have their fun time. :-)

correction: i meant to say "boat"

 

and the subscription should be $25/year, not per month.

It isn't $25 a month, it is $25 a year.

 

Philip Greenspun just came back on the scene, and he seems to have a second wind. Read through some of the recent posts he made (use search). If you peek at his blog (google it), he looks to be in a hiring frame of mind.

 

Feels like a positive time to me, have to keep an ear to the ground over the next year and pray he isn't ramping up to liquidate ala ArsDigita =) *duck*

"and the subscription should be $25/year, not per month."

 

Was still writing mine when you posted that, woops =)

Is there a future? - I'll give it a maybe, IMO. I look to PN as a secondary site for information and forums. I read other photos sites first (when I sit down and have surfin' time) and prefer them over PN.

 

I did look to PN for photo critiques as a tool to help me learn photography and better my skills, but I was greatly disappointed. I'm relatively new in the ratings/critiquing thing here, and found it not worth the $25/yr spent.

 

I requested a critique on a photo just a few weeks ago, and started to get ratings only SECONDS after posting (yes, I was eager and was checking that soon). I received 3's from anonymous users. WTF?

 

However, to put things in perspective, I've sought out critiques on my photos from many other sites, and no system seems perfect. There's always problems and things that are very dissastisfying.

 

I think the problem (or a part of the problem) is with people. They don't seem to take the time to really look at a photo and think about it. They glance at it for a few miliseconds and then fire off a rating or a hastily written critique. Then, it's on to the next 100 photos for them...

 

Perhaps part of the problem is with information overload. There's so much stuff about photography on the 'net. There are loads of sites and millions of photos to look at and offer some sort of response.

 

To craft a meaningful critique about someone's photo, you should take your time, look, think, and ponder it, IMO.

 

On a positive note - there are some really great photos stored in the PN galleries, and I do enjoy looking at them.

OH, dear Mark B.

 

I cannot agree more with you :) You put it so well!

I am here only 2 years now, and I noticed that starting with January 2006, everything went down on Photo Net :(

 

So sad sad sad sad, the good photographers are now somewhere in the middle, and I am getting so tired by all those anonymous rating and not so good photographs in front :(

 

Can we resolve this problem, or is there another Photography web site?

 

Biliana

I would certainly be interested in other sites if anyone has some recommendations.

 

Only been a member for a few months but want to improve my photography not clamour to be top rated.

 

I too am sick off anonomous 3s seconds afetr a posting AND upset by the complete lack of info on the recent " changes" . what do I pay my subscription for.

 

 

Jon

As a long-time participant, I have my share of concerns about the site. However, I continue to think the site has great promise, and to a significant extent is going to be what its participants -- at all levels -- are willing to make of it. I hope at some point the site's management seeks feedback from its participants about what works and could be improved about the site. For the moment, it appears they have their hands full. So this note just to say -- your efforts are appreciate and worthwhile. The future can be as bright as the sun.

Hi All

 

I was getting a bit despondent by all the negative comments on the future of p.n, and perhaps not the least because I cannot seem to get my last name corrected (see the posting above this one). So I thought: 'Well let's check out these other 'better' sites.'

 

But, unless someone posts the URLs, I just do not seem to find any that are not: sleazy, unprofessional, commercial, or down-right silly or even stupid.

 

I have seen, and have been helped myself, by p.n members and other users in a supporting way that one can only appreciate.

 

I can understand the uneasiness of long-standing professional members about new 'kids' on the block (such as myself, especially if you are not really a kid, but an ol' timer) posting 'inferior' photographs. However, where else can you get such good comments and great photo's (from young and old) to learn from?

 

So, I would suggest: Let the senior guys, managment and others who are interested, get the show on the road (i.e. get rid/change things that are not 'right'), and let the good times roll.

 

Arnold S de Beer

Is there a future for PN?

 

I just found this picture in the TRP: http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/4840669-md.jpg

 

Obviously PN has a future, since this is what the average bloke out there things a good photograph is. As for those of us who know better, well, let's just say the only reason I post these days is for the occasional useful critisism and to have a place I can point potential clients to. Believe it or not I have gotten jobs from my portfolio here.

Yeah, everyone knows a good photo looks <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/4842107">more like this</a>.

<u><A href =

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/sex+pistols/god+save+the+queen_20123626.html>

<i>Dont be told what you want dont be told what you need<br>

Theres no future no future no future for you</i></a></u>

Well, it's easy to be negative about PN - partly because there are things to be negative about and partly because it's big in terms of features and content and small in terms of staff.

 

I understand that the photos side of PN generates the visitors and that the vistors generate the ad clicks and that the ad clicks are essential for survival. I don't understand the rating/critque system, far too complicated for someone of my limited intelligence, so I simply ignore it. I sometimes glance at the POW but very few of them interest me, and seem to me to belong on a different sort of site entirely - cgi.net springs to mind.

 

In all the criticsm (justified or otherwise) of the site management, the rating system and so on it's easy to lose sight of the 'other side' of PN - the forums. As one of the forum moderators I've done a fair bit of 'teaching' in the form of forum answers, our Lighting Themes etc., but I've gained far more than I've given. It seems to me that PN is unique in that we have a vast range of experts in various disciplines and, tucked away among the inevitable silly answers, one of these experts always seems to come up with a valid and helpful answer to the vast majority of questions.

 

I went through a spell of looking at other photography sites but I never managed to find any that had any worthwhile forum content, let alone any that came anywhere near PN. In fact, most of them reminded me of 'AOL Photography Chat'. If the experts really have left PN where have they gone to? I haven't found any evidence of migration to other sites. And if they've gone then who is providing all the expertise in the various forums?

 

My defence of PN is a bit guarded, because certainly if I were in charge I would do some things differently (and perhaps better) but I dismiss any suggestion that the future is bleak.

 

It must be a near-impossible job to manage a site like this; the constant need to generate a healthy income stream, the fact that this is a for-profit business that can't function as a democracy balanced against the need for members to contribute and help.

 

Strangely, the most vocal critics often seem to be people who don't subscribe financially. They constantly complain about the adverts etc (ignoring the fact that they can avoid the annoying adverts by subscribing) and often seem to feel that they have a right to demand change. I'm fully aware that people can contribute in ways other than financial and that there are some members who make a massive contribution to the site even though they don't have a subscriber icon next to their names - but it seems to me that the most vocal critics are the people who contribute little or nothing.

 

Anyway, it seems that there are some management changes and no doubt this will bring about changes to the way PN functions. Maybe we should sit back, wait and see what happens and give our full support to the site.

 

I don't presume to advise the management on their role, but would like to make one small suggestion (OK, a big suggestion) Please communicate with us. Tell us what you want to achieve and tell us what we can do to help. I think you'll find that most of us are on the same side and are optimistic about the future.

I must say that I think this thread -and others- tends to exaggerate the differences between "now" and "then" and makes me wonder when these good old days actually were. But then I tend to look only at the forums and whilst the subject matter has inevitably changed, I'm not sure the roots are much different. People have always left, including some real players, but I'm by no means convinced that the answers (or the questions) are much worse than they've ever been.

 

The thing I'd say about Photo.net is exactly the same as I used to say about one of the major corporates I used to work for. The people with a stake of any sort in this thing need to understand what it's here for and what its objectives are. That way they can understand the changes and stances taken by those managing the site. If you don't tell then everyone will suppose their own versions. Not making the purpose and key performance parameters clear is a disease of privately owned businesses and it doesn't help the entity at all.

Is there a future for PN? I sure hope so. I can't tell you how much help and info I've gotten

here. I know no darkroom people around me to talk to, learn from.

 

I frequent one other photographer's forum. Mostly I go there hoping to see something

fresh and good. Sometimes I do. But if I need to know something technical, this is where I

come.

 

I'm one of Photo.net's best cheerleaders. When anyone asks a tech question at the other

forum (and no answers come!) I always send a message saying, "ask at photo.net". I

appreciate the generous way so many of you have helped me.

The difference between then and now is the flames wars have changed from Nikon vs. Canon to film vs. digital.

If someone had asked me 6 months ago 'will you renew your sub in 6 months time?' I would probably have said 'yes'. My subs are due and I am not going to renew. Why? The rating system of course. It's as if someone is on permanent vigil to hit your efforts as soon as they

are submitted. Nearly all of my photos have received ratings between 3 and 7 inclusive , how am I supposed to assess my abilities based on such a wide variation in opinion. Anonymous opinion is worthless and should be disregarded. If I wrote a book and a famous author

binned it in review I would give up writing, if he praised it, great, I would be on top of the World. It would not matter what

Joe Public thought of my work, he is untrained in literature. Sadly

the untrained Joe Public has too much power. Raters should earn their right to rate others work having themselves submitted work of a high enough standard. That would probably rule me out of the

rating game but I would be happy in the knowledge that those rating my work know what they are talking about.

One note about "now" and "then", compared to 18 months ago PN is WAY better. Even if the d*mned flamingos keep showing up.

I am very glad to see so many people with hero sign throwing their .02c into the pot. But what is worry me is a fact that many see a brilliant future without seeing any needs for changes . Also it is not quite right statement that non-paying members complain the most. Even in this thread only two persons are not patrons at that moment. And one is the youngest and the second is most productive both in poetry and ratings :). For those who see brilliant future please tell us more why? And thrust me I would be very glad if that could happen. My post was made in intention to maybe move some stones and try to open some eyes. I am not throwing rocks. I do not say I will delete all my photos and leave, nobody would care anyway, like many did before and nobody cared about them either.

 

What could really help to raise a spirit of this site: people who run it should share their plans and ambitions in frequent post. And they should avoid to let members feel that they do not give a damm what individuals think or want. We all know it is a fact of human nature and business owner is not different but it is so nicer to keep civilized manners. Helps to run any business much smoother. And every business needs customers to exist.

Seeing the possibility for a brilliant future does not mean that changes would not help. Its not so black and white/either-or, Mark. It may be that the site has no value to you, relative to other opportunities. But he site has survived for a decade, has a wealth of information and photographs among its resources, and people interested in many aspects of photography from around the world participating in a wide range of forums.

 

I sit in a different position than you -- I am one of the amateurs who you may not find particularly helpful to hang out with, unless you want an amateur's view of things, which you apparently don't. Still, I can tick off in one breath a dozen things that frustrate me about the site, and in another breath a dozen things I would like as improvements. But at this point, with the site in some sort of significant transitiion, it is my affection for what the site has meant to me that dominates my thoughts. I hope those of us who have benefitted from the site can ride through this time with the site improved and our communities intact. And Mark, I hope that includes you.

I'm envious of you guys being able to think the big thoughts. My mind is occupied with "Wouldn't it be nice to have accurate financial reports?" and "What if we had a commented source code file for all the PL/SQL functions in the Oracle database?" and "What if all the files in the file system weren't owned by root?" and "What if there were an org chart and job descriptions?"

 

We have to crawl before we can walk.

My two cents:

 

1) There is no way to make a rating system that people won't complain about. Lest we forget, anonymous rating and 3/3 minimum were specifically set in place to counter the numerous complaints about mate rating, revenge rating, and 1/1's, and anything done to fix one set of problems makes the other worse.

 

2) 99% of all complaints about the rating system boil down to "My photo isn't rated high enough". Tough, we can't ALL be "above average".

 

3) It is possible to enjoy life and enjoy a website (and even pay for it) without getting in a dither because things aren't exactly the way you'd like them.

 

4) We all have different tastes. Even very skilled professional photographers have altogether different tastes; this isn't a pro-vs-newbie thing. Expecting your judgment to coincide with the elves or other raters is just a set-up for disappointment.

 

5) The idea is often tossed around that the opinions of newbies or amateurs or the unskilled category of your choice shouldn't matter to anyone. In fact, the "great" photographers were for the most part great because the public at large liked their work- those people reading the paper or the magazine or buying the calendar are often the final judges of what is good and what isn't in the photographic industry.

 

6) As best I can tell, the instant 3/3 rating is somewhat of a myth. Yes, I know you really did submit a shot and really did get 3/3 right away, etc. But I've made a point on some of my photos to check those ratings, and that is certainly not a consistent pattern. There does not seem to be a robot or haterater giving everyone 3/3's as soon as it is submitted. I've had photos start off with instant high ratings which gradually dropped- while other people were at the same time complaining about instant 3/3's.

 

7) The folder system here simply isn't set up for huge amounts of files. Once you realize that, the answer is simple: Don't post huge amounts of pictures here. There is not a photographer in the world that I want to see a thousand different pictures from, and I doubt few others do, either. It's like having a thousand pictures on your wall at home. They may fit, but no one's going to look at them all. So clean your attic, pick 50 or 100 of the newest or best or most interesting and scrap the rest.

 

8) Once you realize that the rating system, the critique system, the POW system aren't infallible guides to what is good in photography, you shouldn't just reject them. Take them for what they are. The rating system tells you what other people think of your picture- is it a surprise if one person likes it and another doesn't? You don't have to take offense at the one that didn't, either. The critiques are sometimes useful, sometimes not. Like asking a friend "whatcha thing of this one?"- you may or may not get a useful answer. One of my photography buddies always says "you got some good pictures there"- now, that's not a very useful critique, but I'm sure not going to get ticked off about it.

 

9) What you get out of a site like this in large part depends on your attitude and what you put into it. If you have a bad attitude, nothing that happens on the site will ever be right.

Mark. I was a paying member last year, I did not renew my subscription this year and deleted some 300+ photos, many of which were seated in the top rated galleries. Hundreds of critiques, thousands of ratings, all gone now. I've re-uploaded a few favourites in small sizes cuz I'm scared to leave for good! There's always hope...<p>

 

Like Edward, my photo.net portfolio was huge for me when it came to public exposure and "hits", being my first URL www.photo.net/screenname was awesome, no doubt. But as I said before, I have personally lost interest in subscribing and I no longer see the benefit of maintaining a portfolio chalk full of unprotected images.<p>

 

Alternative sites? A couple come to mind. <a href="http://www.dpchallenge.com">www.dpchallenge.com</a> and <a href="http://www.photosig.com">www.photoSIG.com</a> come to mind. I've found a lot of pnetters on both of those sites, mostly photosig.<p>

 

Photosig is kinda neat though. It's rating system uses thumbs. 1, 2, or 3 thumbs up/down. If I remember correctly... writing a comment is mandatory before your rating is made public. Critiques must be a certain length (couple lines) with no repetitions before they are accepted, too. If you go to Photos> in the main menu, you'll notice there are top photo pages, but also (my favourite part) a section showcasing random critiques. You can even browse photos by Genre, Camera, or even Film type or Shutter Speed (for this purpose, technical information is required when you upload a photo).<p>

 

 

I will always recommended photo.net ahead of any other site. Once you look around you realise we do have it pretty good over here ;-)<p>

I have often wondered if the text and html can be on one server, or part of it and the high bandwidth zillion images on another part of the server, so when folks flood the site with uploaded images, the sites threads can still be robust and not bog. <BR><BR>Getting a good handle on where money is flowing is paramount when taking command of a business. There are leaks in all businesses; whether large or small. You have to have a good handle on where you stand money wise before any major changes can be done. When signing the checks one might find out that repair and maintenance check is not for the server, but a fax machine. :)