Open Letter to Mate Raters

Pnina, I commented on one of your images a couple of years ago. It was a comment on harsh lighting. Now, what did you do? Quickly low-rated the image which had received the highest ratings in my portfolio. Why, then, do you think that people do not give comments other than overwhelming praise? That's what you want to hear, you will not listen to actual critiques.

You wrote: "Balance Brigade lowball rating is just as dishonest as mate-rating. That is not the solution. Since I know well what happened back then, I can tell you that going through a selected few individuals entire folder and ratinge everything lower than honest is not going to solve anything."

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Trouble is, that you assumed (very wrongly) from day one, that my ratings did not express what I truly thought of the picrtures I rated. Now here is your chance: just post here 5 links of very so-called "abusive" ratings I would have dropped on several pictures, and I'll post an explanation as to WHY I rated the pictures the way I did. This should please Pnina too, I suppose.

Your name sounds somehow familiar, but honestly, not enough for me to remember which pictures of yours I rated and how much - if I did. Since you are calling for an explanation, that's no problem: give me the links, and I'll explain.

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As to your advice regarding "preaching" and "doing what I preach", I believe you missed the train a couple of times. Try to download all my photonet gallery comments into your computer, and see how long it takes... Probably about 700,000 words or so, if I remember well the figure I was told some time ago... Basically, I doubt anyone on this site has left as many words of comments as I did, so you are certainly knocking at the wrong door...

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And yes, I do allow myself (because PN allows it) not to leave a comment with every single rating...

By the way, I like Atle's idea of 2 areas on the site... That's what brought me to pay up my suscription on another site.

And by the way, now that I just had a look at what you do, I am even offering, if you like, to rate your entire 157 pictures folder, with a comment for about half of them.

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Would you take the offer? If so, just say so in this thread, and I'll be on my way... Cheers.

I'd rather keep the hatchet buried. Plus Brian would have to put the names with the rates again. Something on my personal wishlist by the way.

 

Pninna, Marc is not the problem here. The problem is with a GROWING group of members rating each other with nothing but 7 after 7, regardless of the image quality. This group is so large now, these often rather ordinary images are plastered all over the first few pages of the TRP. Every comment (when there are any) are the same, nice shot, great shot, good exposure etc etc...

 

No longer are these maters content with an image here and there, but post multiple times now (although the images often look the same) and have guaranteed visibility on the top few pages with each image posted. The images rise to the top, as well as photographers success, has nothing to do with the images being that good, but has everything to do with having a large enough group of friends handing out the 7 after 7. The site suffers, the photographers actually suffer (THINKING they are that good) and lesser known photographers (many with a much greater variety as well as more talent) drift towards obscurity into nowhereland. It is an unfair practice, that needs to be addressed by management, because it is quite obvious the maters themselves are not about to do anything about it.

If Pnina doesn't take you up on that offer, please feel free to take a swing at a

few of mine. Actually, I'd really appreciate someone to take a look at my

portfolio as a whole and give me their opinion as to strengths/weaknesses,

room for improvement, etc. You have my invitation.

Howard > on the contrary. the sooner it worsens to the point of univeral embarrassment the sooner we will see change. I'm content to simply let the TRP fish head rot (while holding my nose) until, per force, action gets taken.

 

Unlikely. Brian does not believe that TRP quality has been sinking over time. His position is that (1) TRP are better than "average", and (2) TRP are more legitimate than selection by committee. There is no objective measure that you can use to convince him otherwise. How much more should it rot before action is taken? Many here feel that it reached that point long ago.

 

The only things that one can do, given the system will not be changed, is to keep suggesting tweaks in the hope that some of the ideas will be implemented. Here's a short list of old ideas, repeated:

 

(1) Filter by average length of comments; make that the default page half the time.

(2) Ration first page TRP placement to 1 or 2 for a photographer per week.

(3) Ensure that the first page TRP has variety by limiting the proportion of space taken by a given category. This would mean that categories be specified when the photographs are uploaded and not when you do a critique request.

(4) etc etc etc

 

These would help new visitors to understand the range of stuff available in the gallery, and may help them learn.

Ilkka, let me answer you first, I don't retaliate!,especialy if a comment is attached to a low rating,I do go to see the names that rated my folder,but the problem most of the time that there are names that I already know that ALL my works when they are rating by them is low, and never with an explanation !!So if someone rates you low and other time not high, but lets say medium, that is ok, but when it is always low I know it is not honest rating.Usualy I try to comment constructivly every photo I rate., and most of the time it works.Not everyone have to like my work but the rating problem that is a way of evaluation here, if you want it or not is sick. Ilkka, I don't remember your name and what you tell, on the contrary, if somebody rated me low and his work is good I will rate him according to his good work, and I can prove it. Pnina

Mark Lucas> In fact, all of you that have given up hope, is it not worth one more try? I kind of feel alone on this [snip]

 

Why bother when the site administration does not see any harm in it?

 

> The worst thing of all is that you think you are doing your "friends" a favour, when in fact you do them a disservice by offering a falsely inflated opinion of their work.

 

Do you really think that the photographers on the TRP don't know the value of their work? It's a game that they are fully aware of. "Balance Brigading" is tough work, takes a lot of time and needs a fair number of participants. You should start a fresh thread for recruiting, but the thread could get nuked, be warned.

Marc G, Sorry,my reffering was to Mark Lucas,and not to you.I wrote his name with a C and not with a K. Pnina

Marc G. I'm an established artist in my country, But I will be glad if you will see my presentation (Follow the light - a process) and write me evaluation on it, as I will exhibite it in the future.Thank you Pnina

Ilkka, I was subscribed to PN in may 2002, but started to upload photos only in September 2003.

 

Marc, In the begining I was rating and not always commenting, I have rated your 2 photos "Companions', and you are on my list.It is a long time that I don't send my photos to critique. Pnina

Pnina, if you are changing your mind and now talking to me - then I can only say that you're talking out of your backside. Check your facts before making bold statements here.

 

I've only rated two photo's of yours, one a 4/4 which I feel was overrated by your "friends" (http://www.photo.net/photo/3093708) and another at 4/5 with a comment and I even spent time in Photoshop with it - there's gratitude for you! In fact, the latter example even generated some interesting discussion.

 

Then, you've even got the cheek to talk about people rating bad photo's high - ha! Brilliant! Your Top Rated is like a who's who of the mate rating fraternity. No doubt there were two others on there until they were recently banned from the site.

 

evental, pnina Buddies... 4 5 February 01, 2005

evental, pnina The Blue Corner.. 4 4 February 05, 2005

Mate raters? What about when you go visit someone who rated you, click on their highest rated photos, and see that they are their own? I didn't even think that was allowed, but I saw it today. That serves no purpose whatsoever.

Kent... Ya John was quite awhile and suddenly quit. Wish he would resume. He's a great critquer, and clearly suffered much damage to his port for speaking out.

 

Seems to be a lot of people all day on this forum and very few actually hitting the streets and doing something. Endless discussion analizing the cause but nothing done. Alone i have driven one mate raters pics way back in the trp, lots of them. Not some hero just sayin its very effective. You lay down solid reasons and blurt out 4/4. Next guy comes along reads it, looks again...oh right, i see that. Not everyone has time to disect an image but loads of senior members here are expert. Exposure to the light is what they fear most, just like real world criminals.

 

Truly a popularity contest like it or not. Tons of images back in trp that beat anything on page one. These people simply have no friends. How thin is the line between friends and mates?? If you have no friends you simply get no rates. They sit back on page 20 and because this is the only existing site on the net left with no "jump to" bar, hardly anyone gets back there.

 

Seems two forces at play here. PN claims rates aren't for us but only to spit out top images..ok...and we are all moaning inequality because we are exposure deficient.

 

So my earlier idea of randomizing the trp, nobody even said boo about yet. What is exactly wrong with opening page 1 and seeing Kent there, or John..only for a day, next day total new batch. I bet the whole trp shuffled and randomized would look better than it does right now on 1. If you dont see much go to 2 etc. Consider the colour it would add. This entire site has much equality built into the philosophy but in reality its highly prejudiced.

 

Shouldn't each member get equal exposure? Nothing at all is gonna change here in the rating system except the true art will get more of a chance and all the incentive is removed for cheating bad art to good. Its the eyes of the members that deem whats good but its based on seeing less than 10% or so of whats actually produced.

 

If anybody believes this is an amature site and the object is for the better to teach the not so better then answer why there is such a system seperation of the two. An "ordered" highest trp actually works against the very principle and clumps all the best into a little club.

 

Ah but one wild card nobody will admit to. If you got a little biz on the side selling prints and you can wow your customers with "i'm on page 1 everyday of worlds top site".. your gonna sell a lot to the uninformed. Link them to the site and there you sit, top dog.wow. What was that $500 for 20x30? Your not gonna sell many pic to people take pictures either. Theres some fairly big bucks for some of the maters at stake. Randomizing also kills them.

 

Truth is my view is most of the raving on mate rating is by people short of friends and the actual true criminals is much lower than it appears. Most are just people like Pnina here with a whole lotta friends (hi pnina!!!)... end of rant... well i really wanna beat Marc G's world record.....naw...night.

Mark, if you think my last work was overrated why did you rate it as you did, and did not explain why you think so? That was my answer to you. It is your taste and you can rate it as you wish, but if that is your taste it does not mean that others have to think like you.

there are people that rated it and commented on it that I don't know and met them there for the first time. Not every high rate is mate rating, and tastes here are varying a lot.There are here very good photographers that I like their work,and coming to see their folders regularly, and I rate it according to what I think it deserve. I don't see it as mate rating. Pnina

Prina - with respect I find much truth in what Mark says. I also visited your Blue Corner photo <A HREF=" http://www.photo.net/photo/3093708">** HERE **</A>-- and was amazed at the inflated scores for your mediocre picture. <BR>42 rates, avg=6.02/5.97 <BR> 8 people rated this 7/7, <BR>8 more gave it 7/6, <BR>17 people rated this 6/6<BR> <BR> About 30 people leaving also effusive remarks. Many of these are the photographers whose pictures you also rate with inflated scores and effusive false remarks. You all do it on a regular basis. It is why the TRP is filled with such repetitive, uninspiring, saturated, boring pictures of sunsets, bugs, birds, and nudes in schmaltzy frames. I left one sincere comment on your photo about the flattery which you and your raters exchange but 4 hours later I deleted it. Why is it my responsibility to bust your racket? What I find disgusting you encourage so I would probably be speaking to a deaf ear.

Paul, are you my friend as well? as you did not rate this photo low?

and Paul I have read your angry respons to Kim that did not like your last flower upload... so there are many nuances of feelings here...pnina

Pnina,

 

That was not your answer to me.

 

You said I don't practice what I preach - I do (look at my statistics)

 

You implied I often rate you low - I don't (I rated you average to above average)

 

You said I never commented on your work - I did and worked on your picure in Photoshop (something I do very often to illustrate a point).

 

So, after I went to the trouble of critiqueing your picture, what rate did you leave on my "Mona David" portrait? Not the 3/3 without comment was it? Tut tut.

Kent, Yes I saw your folders, and I understand your frustration,.There are very good photographers here thatI value their work, I'm sorry but your work is not doing any reaction in me. I will continue to rate and comment works that I think are good, no matter if you will make the arithmetic in my folder, that you are entitled to think are bad.I belive that most people that are coming back to see my work think it is good, and anyway we are talking of looking for a better rating/ commenting way. Pnina

Mark, sorry I did not rate your photo 3/3 ! I have rated it 4/3and I did not leave a comment that is right. I did not say that you rated me low often ! I spoke on the last one. but what I ment was that if you think that comment has to be written explaining why an image is not good, why didn't you leave a comment? anyway I have names that coming to my folder often and it is always the same low rating, some of them were deleted by abuse, without my asking it.

What I think is that something has to change in the system.I have nothing personal to you Mark, and it will be nice to hear your voice while rating as long as it will be constructive and polite. Pnina

I'm a beginner photographer, not very good but trying hard and spending a great amount of time trying to improve my work. When i first came to this site, i was impressed with how generous and helpfull PN "oldtimers" and Experienced photographers where. As time goes by, it seems like it's getting harder and harder to get comments. I'm not just talking about the good and constructive one, i would be happy even with some useless comments like: "wow" "Great" or "It suck" At least that way, i would know for sure that i'm posting for peoples to see, not just to boost the amount of images in this site database. Problem for an average photog like my is it's very hard to make it to the TRP. Not that i need to be in the front, i don't give a flying shit about my ranking, the only reason why i need to go there is because it seems like it's one of the only way to get some serious comments...

 

I think Paul's idea of a random TRP is one of the greatest idea offered here in a long time. There' been many treads lately about mate rating and all kind of rating problems. Lots of peoples come here to complain but have no solution to offer, some come up with solution that just make no sens or are imposible to implement. I think Paul's idea is worth a good deal of reflection from the admin staff since it might be the key to solve a lot of problems. I'm now curious to ear what is the point of wiew of Brian or someone from inside, What would be the pros and cons of such a change.

 

Thanks, Pascal

Vincent, I realy agree with you that something has to change, I think that the former system rating with comment together was less manipulated than that one. It is discussed time and again, many are not happy with what is going on, but....Well I totaly agree with you. Pnina

I know that I've suggested it before but I still think that the default TRP page should be got rid of completely. In it's place there could be simply the "Period" box and the "By" box which would allow people to select their own individual combination for viewing. There would be no default winners and losers and it would also make the practice of mate rating pointless. The range of images being viewed would be more diverse.

 

The trouble is it wouldn't be as dynamic, would spoil the "Game" are therefore I doubt it'll ever happen, more's the pity.