Can anyone recommend a workhorse MF for student use?

Hi. I run the darkroom and equipment cage at an art college. I?m hoping

someone out there can suggest a particular model of medium-format camera

with which to supply our beginning and intermediate students. It?s been a

struggle to maintain a strong fleet of MFs for checkout. Our dozenYashica

635s are now mostly a graveyard that?s too expensive or impossible to repair.

We thought we solved our problem by getting a half-dozen Mamiya TLRs

(C3s, C220s, C330s). They?ve worked out pretty well for the last five years but

have recently become quirky and very difficult to repair and maintain (again,

mostly because of the lack of parts). So now we?re looking to buy three

medium-format cameras that fall within the following rough requirements:

 

1) Something under $1200 each

 

2) Something that can be used fairly frequently (3 or 4 days a week) by a lot of

different students and still hold up decently.

 

3) Something that isn?t extremely difficult or expensive to repair (though we do

have a decent repair budget and are willing to send out our cameras to the

four corners of north america for a good repair job or a vital part).

 

4) Something with optics at least as good as a Yashica 635 TLR.

 

I realize that Mamiya TLRs might still be our best bet. I?m just wondering if

anyone out there thinks that, say, an old Rollei TLR or a Bronica of some sort

or even a rangefinder of some sort would be better suited. Any advice would

be much appreciated by our hard-working students (who mostly still love

shooting analog, by the way) and frustrated photo techs. thanks!

Ricoh Diacords have a great 4 element, Tessar type lens that is as good, if not better than the Yash 635. They run about $ 75-100 each See this <a href="http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/ricoh.htm">LINK for more info</a><p>Minolta Autocords are also excellent at about $ 150 each

Is there a reason you're sticking with TLR's?

 

It might be more cost effective in the long run to get an interchangable lense/body system where even if a body goes bad, you don't have to replace/repair the whole system.

 

Bronica SQ-A's can be found on the used market pretty readily and will still give you the 6x6 negs. The lenses certainly match the quality of the 635. Just looking at KEH, they have kits with prism's and lenses for around $700 each. And of course, additional lenses, backs, etc. readily available.

 

My $.02 anyway.

You can stick to Mamiya TLRs but for similar prices you can also have RB Pro S (about $350 for a basic kit (body, C-lens, WLF, back) and about $400 to get the whole thing CLA'd)). You do not mention whether handholdability is an issue, but if it's not, RBs should last forever (after you get them CLA'd) and Mamiya still supports them. I would get the Pro S models because of the safety interlocks. I find that RBs have somewhat better optics than Mamiya TLRs but it might be also because that they more stable when handheld (when using the LH grip).

 

If you need something than has more bells and whistles, such as AE and TTL flash, then Bronica SQai might be of your interest. I was contemplating getting myself one with three lenses (say 50, 80 and 180) and I came to $1,200 for KEH BARGAIN grade equipment (which would be equivalent to eBay MINT++ grade).

Run with the RB 67, its undestructable, C 330 is much more complicated and fragile, you cannot compare. Prices for RBs are a shame today, body maybe 150 -200$, back maybe 100, lenses between 150 and 400 for the wides, all in very good condition. With the grip attached its easy handheld and quality of pictures is known. Look for S or SD, the differences arent that big, but the finder is much better and your students cannot forget to remove slider or to wind film. Service is given and you can get new parts or find a lot on ebay.

I'd also recommend RB67's. They are workhorse machines, there are a lot of used ones out there, and service is widely available for them.

With this budget you can get lots of good stuff. A rangefinder is a niche machine so I'd stick with an SLR. I checked KEH - you can get a bargain Hassleblad 500c for $663.00 (with lens, back and WLF) or why not an RZ instead of an RB or even a Pentax 6X7 (that is if you can develop bigger than 6X6). If you can't you could get a Pentax 645 or even more retro and manual, a Mamiya 1000S which is solid and unbreakable. Stay away from lots of electronic circuit boards and such - keep it simple, keep it manual and you can't go wrong. Stay away from Ebay, too much junk being passed off.

Our school (Orange Coast College,California) has some Fuji 6x9's but the workhorse MF camera is the Hasselblads. Either 500c or 501C. They are solid and reliable and take the day in day out grind. They are the single most checked out camera there as they are a mainstay of all the upper level classes. Simple basic Hassey kits, back, 80 mm lens and body, no frills. They also have bought several other lenses for them as well. 50's, 150's 180's etc. Anyone, especially a student can damage a camera, but these ones keep ticking.

the little mamiya 645s are all great cameras, and can be had for a song and a dance. even the older 1000s models are great, sturdy machines. the 645 super, pro, and pro TL are all very good and all are very affordable. a good used pro TL, which is one of mamiya's current models, can be had for around $850 with std lens. if you want cheap and simple, the yashicamat 124G is hard to beat. older rolleis are too problemmatic. the discontinued bronicas are good cameras, but parts will be hard to come by. old hassy's are great machines, but spendy to fix. pentax 67s are cheap and great too. i have owned lots of MF, and they have all been well made professional cameras that should last a while.

For the $1200 for one of the cameras in your budget, you could have <a href="http://www.markhama.com/">Mark Hama</a> repair all of your 635's. He does very good work. Write him for a bulk estimate. He's done both of my current Yashicamats for under $100 each. He's qualified. He used to build them.

Good 2nd hand Hasselblad 500 series body with the usual 80 planar & film back can certainly fill the bill.

"Run with the RB 67, its undestructable, C 330 is much more complicated and fragile, you cannot compare."

 

That doesn't sound right at all. The C330 series are as tough as old boots and, apart from the between-the-lens shutters have only the (very simple) wind mechanism to go wrong. RB67s are very tough but they have lifting mirrors and all sorts of other things to fail.

 

Perhaps Mag got his cameras round the wrong way?

WORKHORSE + MEDIUM FORMAT = MAMIYA RB or RZ

I own some "RB"s and "C"s and I love the "C"s, but I found that they sometimes have problems with release mechanics, the release button and the cable release button are connected in a crazy way.

Mamiya C330 S or C330 F.

The lack of moving parts makes a TLR a good choice. I shudder at the thought of tons

of different students frequently dealing with RB backs and lenses and expecting the

gear to hold up.

 

Although I am not generally a fan of the build quality of Chinese 'Seagull' TLRs, their

image quality will certainly equal that of the 635 (which used an older triplet lens

design), and their prices -- starting as low as $150-$175 -- makes it a fair choice for

use and replacement several times over.

 

The recommendation that you contact Mark Hama is a good one. Hama used to manage

the Yashica repair department in the US, and I've had good dealings with him. He

performed a CLA on my Autocord and did a great job.

 

If you want to buy used, I wouldn't recommend an Autocord. I have one and I love the

image quality, but the slide-lever focus knob on this old camera easily get damaged,

and I wouldn't trust it with a rotating crew of newbie photographers. Get a Rolleicord.

I have bronica MF slrs, and they're really cheap now. Picked up a superb condition SQ-Ai body for $200. Not everybody's repriced down, so visiting two stores stocking used Bronica, you'll see identical condition and age 220 backs for $135 and $300. That may make it a pain in the butt to try to build a stock of cameras and lenses. They also have a lot of moving parts and removable parts, and if your students are as hard on the gear as I was at that age, it may not be a great idea. From my experiences in building and racing cars, doubling moving and removable parts increases the possibility of failure by a factor of ten. That's why oil-cooled Porsches did so well for so long in endurance racing - water cooling added 100 moving parts that, if any one of them failed, you were out of the race.

 

I know that Mamiya TLRs are rugged as bricks, a lot of students I know at photog schools use them and abuse them. I've done things to my Yashicamat that I shudder to mention, and it's tough and still works. I'd think along those lines.

 

And honestly, why not have a range of gear, a bunch of very nice TLRs, some rangefinder MF, and a huge stack of well-taped Holgas? I think for $1200 you could get two from column A, two from column B, and 20 from column C. There's a tremendous amount of learning that happens in switching gear - I've found that different "limits" and "shortcomings" in different gear have triggered 99% of my creative growth. (But that might just be me.)

Hi Bryan, I am the technical director for photography at a university also. I would

recommend the Mamiya 645E unless you need a) leaf shutter lenses or b) the ability

to use a Polaroid back (with Polaroid in dire straits right now it might not matter in

the not-too-distant future...). Otherwise, get a bunch of used Hassy 500C's and old

lenses. Hasselblad will still fix it all (I believe), and sometimes they have sales on

repairs (20% off or something like that). Also Mamiya, Pentax, and Hasselblad all offer

educational pricing if you want to buy new gear.

Hi Bryan!...My rec is Mamiya M645. RB/RZ series awsome built cameras, but somewhat big and bulky. No doubt some would argue that, but I find the older series much more convenient, and the glass is very reasonably priced. I just purchased a used m645 for $60.00 with the focus screen and insert. You can pick up std 80mm lenses for well under 100 bucks off of ebay or keh. Prism finder for about 50-75 bucks. 3 basic models:

J..does not have mirror lockup/dual shutter release. 645..has the mlu and dual shutter release, 1000s has lockable shutter speed dial, 1000s top speed and a self timer. Keep in mind you can purchase a whole body on one of these guys for what you would pay for the interchangeable back alone on the Pro or Super. I also have and love shooting with an older Mat TLR also...Have fun! Mark

It seems more like one of those threads where people recommend what they own

instead of what's best for particular uses. Was there any mention of a need for

interchangable lenses or self-timers?

 

A lot of people here are recommending SLRs with lots of moving parts and higher

service requirements (especially if used and abused regularly by numerous students)

than the TLRs Bryan already has and is apparently happy using.

My 30 years as Pro with all kind of cameras and just one logical conclusion -

RZ67. Undesrtuctable , Battery or not, cheap, easy in use , cheap lenses and

quality that beats everything else. Remeber , Pro's are choosing it not just

because is heavy and cheap. Trust me .

.[.Z makes a good point concerning students and cameras with extra features. A simple sturdy TLR has very few places that a finger can be poked, prodded, and generally inserted where it shouldn't be. An SLR, with many parts that can be removed (lenses, focusing screens, film backs [wherin lie shutter curtains]) can be an invitation for the curious neophyte. Having your 635's repaired to as or near new can keep a lot of your funds in your hands for other worthy projects and supplies.

<i>It seems more like one of those threads where people recommend what they own instead of what's best for particular uses. Was there any mention of a need for interchangable lenses or self-timers?</i><br><br>

 

Since the Mamiya TLR is on of the options they consider, I guesss interchangeable lenses were mentioned. I still think RB or C330 are the best options and even though RB is an SLR, I think it is even more bulletproof than C330 (I own and seriously abuse both, so I can compare).<br><br>

 

Also, Bryan mentions problems with spare parts for TLR cameras, RB cameras are still supported and about the same price as C330. <br><br>

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against TLRs but if you consider all possibilities, RBs seem as better bargain and long term investement.

Pavel, if you notice he's said that the Mamiyas have "become quirky and very difficult to

repair and maintain" -- so it's highly unlikely that he'd want to buy more. They were

chosen as a replacement for a non-interchangeable-lens TLR, with no suggestion that

additional lenses were used (or needed, or desired) as part of the curriculum.

 

The idea of buying used RBs and expecting the backs, lenses and gears to hold up

nearly as well as a decent TLR is a bit daft, I think.

<i>Pavel, if you notice he's said that the Mamiyas have "become quirky and very difficult to repair and maintain"</i><br><br>

 

I wonder how they got Mamiyas that were not quirky to start with... :-)<br><br>

 

Anyway, I disagree with your opinion, I think RB has as much of the endurance as any TLR, but I also believe that all arguments were presented already and now it's up to Bryan to make the right decision (and follow my advice... :-) )