"Class Action" against Leica for R8/R9 film scratching?

A few questions. So far the complaint seems to be that the film has scratches on the first few frames. If the problem is caused by small burrs in the plastic piece that lies along the film path, shouldn't the scratches extend the length of the film?<P>

 

Secondly, and as I stated in the previous thread, there must be hundreds of pro Leica-R shooters in Europe (especially Germany) - and at least a notable few elsewhere. Have there been complaints from them? If so, what was the fix? And, <I>if not</I>, how do you explain that (given the volume pros usually shoot in, and the demands they make).<P>

 

Third, has anyone yet contacted Solms in this matter, or sent their camera in for inspection? If the problem is really the result of a design flaw, I'm sure Leica can be induced to rectify it, given that quality and integrity are really their only selling points.

Just seeing the words "Class Action" sure got a lot of response in a few hours. None of the posters, to my knowledge, even represent Leica Camera. Imagine what a company's response could be without anyone doing much more than pointing at this thread or penning a letter on behalf of consumers.

 

Do you see my point now? There is a strong chance that a petition, a strongly worded letter by several consumers, or the INDICATION that a group is ready to begin talking about a joint suit, will solve this problem correctly, quickly and cheaply for all parties.

 

150 rolls is not a lot of film: I do not have, or have not seen, actual statistical data on the failure point. But I bet it exists in Solms.

 

Why should I bother my dealer? If the issue is related to the selling price, service (staff) issues or the like, then I would. I send my gear directly to the importer/distributor. (In my case, Leica Camera Switzerland.) A dealer may send in only a handful of these cameras a year....

 

If I receive a complaint about a product failure in -my- company from one customer a week, it can (gulp) take weeks to catch the problem among my customers. If I were to receive one jointly penned and signed letter from 100 customers with the same complaint, I WOULD REACT IMMEDIATELY. There could be NO excuse. I am certain that my relationship with my customers would improve, so long as the issue was handled properly.

 

As far as the issue of the attorneys and their "what's in it for them."...Maybe there is an attorney around me or you that is also a Leica enthusiast and a decent, dare I say, honest, professional. (Aren't we all here ;-)) I can't succumb to the cynical attitudes that surround issues like these. This is a genuine small problem that can be solved well before two attorneys even dial the other's number.

 

Hektor your last line is gold. (With a name like Hektor! ;-) )

 

The problem now, and I hesitate to post it, is finding enough of the R8 and R9 owners and informing them of 1. the possibility of the problem 2. the probibility of the problem (unsubstan.) 3. the course of action that other owners are considering.

 

Why not send a link of this post to Leica -D-USA-CH etc? 20 emails with the link might be a good start!

 

R Fred

I am pleased that so many of our forum colleagues have taken

an interest in htis problem. As Jay mentionned, we do not know

the percentage of R8 or R9 cameras that have this problem

but...WHO CARES? Our cameras have been afflicted and the

cause is well described and understood. Simply put, Leica could

easily redesign a metal piece and eradicate this problem. The

idea of forwarding this entire thread to Leica is great but I

wouldn't know how to do it. It should go to both Brenda Olafson

at Leica NJ and to xxx in Solms. If someone can send this entire

thread, plese do it. As to a law suit, I agree that it would only hurt

us in and the company in the end, BUT, if we have a lawyer in the

group (come on, don't be ashamed about it...we understand!

(:>))) ,) perhaps he/she could just write a legal letter to Leica

explaining the problem. Those types of letters usually work. I

look at this as a CONSTRUCTIVE excercise that will alert the

company and make them responsive and hopefully better (relax,

Jay... I know what you are going to say..again!)

Reto,

 

Here in the many dealers have an interest in seeing their customers satisfied even after the sale. That is strong point of developing a relationship with a dealer. I know that my shop has intervened on the customers behalf to correct an issue.

 

Unless I missed it you have not mentioned what actions you have taken personally to get the problem fixed on your camera so far. It goes to the questions that I posed in my previous follow-up. I can understand your desires, and frustration perhaps with your camera. Yet the numbers so far do not indicate that the level of the problem is where you are taking it. That is not to say that it is not a major flaw; but as vocal as people are on the web (look at the EOS 10D focus issue)there appears to be just a few cameras that are affected.

 

Good luck in your quest....

<I>Maybe there is an attorney around me or you that is also a Leica enthusiast and a decent, dare I say, honest, professional.</I><P>

 

I know offhand of at least one such attorney. And I'm pretty sure he would say, leave attorneys out of it. Bag the "class action" idea and contact Solms directly (through your rep). And take more pictures.

Hey Chip - what "EOS-10D focus issue"?

<I>Hektor your last line is gold. (With a name like Hektor! ;-) )</I><P>

 

Thank you, Reto. Doktor Berek would be proud, I think.

In contacting Leica; give them the serial numbers; what the problem is; what color the plastic part is that is causing the problem; any mold marks; cavity numbers; (if they are on the parts); plus a photos too. Sometimes parts are molded wrong; have the wrong compounds; or too much humidity is in the raw pellets; too much regrind is used; or a cavity in the die goes adrift. These clues help pinpoint what is going on. Many times the saleguys candy coat problems; and truncate the data set from mad customers; and the engineers get alot less clues.(this is almost the norm) The Germans are a very rigourous sort; and like order. Thus is a very basic wear problem; and probably requires a retro fit; that might be expensive; but should be done. Another thing is to mention what brand of film you use; and the type; and whether one is in a humid; fair or arid area. Wear on plastic materials is complicated; maybe the engineers used Agfa film; and it causes little wear; but other brands in the USA do. ( this is a wild guess but sometimes slight differences cause wild differences ) Once we had field problems due to black plastics that were transparent to Infrared on one batch; and opaque on another batch. When one approached the unit with a white "IBM" shirt; the unit would go unstable; but it was stable when our blue or dark blue clean room lab covers were worn. The black plastic cover for our sensors; would react to reflected light from a white shirt; and not a darker one. The other vendors parts were to the same spec; but all opaque! Blackening the black sensor housing sides with a sharpie stopped the problem. When we received failed units from customer "HAL" ;we could not duplicate the problem; until one of us lone Engineers with a white shirt walked up; and the problem occured. In interviewing for a shuttle job in the late 1970's; I was told "I shouldnt worry so much about the details" ; by a manager.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have access to a really good CAD system, CMM (a very fancy measuring machine) and a CAM (5 axis miller). Whoever can supply me the first part gets a new redesigned part for free (well almost free, you will have to test and send me back a report). All others will be offered the fix at a reasonable price.

 

So do I have any takers? Note the email goes home so I will not be able to answer anyone until Monday PM after the kids go to bed.

 

Have a nice night.

 

Gerry

My two R8s are now back at Leica NJ and I hope that they will

seriously look at correcting the problem and not just putting a

"bandaid" on the situation. I hope that someone here can send

this thread to Leica NJ and Solms. My dealer, Ken Hansen, knrw

about the problem and was thoroughly disgusted with the denial

from Leica. In fact, he was the first to warn me to be vigilant when

the cameras hit the "150 roll mark." He is retired but in the past

had complained to no avail.

Gerry Szarek, where have you been all of these years? ;-)

That's a great idea.

 

What would you make it from? I'm guessing it would have to be a fairly hard material

or at least heavily plated. I would send you the part if I had an R8. The scratch issue is

one of the reasons why I don't have one...

 

Cheers,

 

feli

Hektor,

 

There have been reports of front/back focusing errors on the EOS 10D. Depending on who you listen to this is an issue that will kill the 10D, or just a very vocal few creating an issue that affects a small number of cameras.

 

All I can say is that my 10D has proper focus (knock on wood).

I think you'd have to have much more solid evidence than what we have here to get a lawyer willing to go the class action route. I sell Leica...not a lot but a few every year (and have been a Leica dealer for 50 years). I called a couple of other Western Canadian dealers since this thread started and asked how often they've been made aware of this problem. A small sampling, I'll admit, but out of 15 or so R8's sold over the last 5 years not one complaint of film scratching. I would think a class action suit would require a bit more of a problem than this (unless of course it is life threatening, which I don't feel this to be). I agree with the idea of a concerted effort to deal with this at a distributor and head office level as users would be more productive.

Go and have your cameras fixed under warranty. As presented here, this is a non-issue.

I'm new to Photo Net and I hope I'm not intruding into the wrong forum. However, I'm thinking of purchasing a Leica R9 and have just stumbled onto this discussion of film sratching, so before I buy an expensive camera that has a big problem, could some kindly soul tell me the following:

 

Is this a problem with all Leica R9 cameras?

 

Does the problem show up immediately or at some inconveniently later juncture when it's too late to return it to the dealer for a refund?

 

Is the problem correctable and is it covered by the warranty?

 

Is there anything else I should know about the Leica R9 before it's too late (I've heard that the R8 has, or had, reliability issues)?

 

I will be deeply gtateful to anyone offering informed guidance in these matters.

 

While I'm at it, would anyone be willing to offer an opinion on the Vario-Elmar-R f4 35-70mm zoom lens (another of my possible purchases).

 

thank you

 

Tony

 

trichards@ci.el-cajon.ca.us

The lord and his lady are motoring in the desert when the rear axle of their Rolls Royce snaps. Within minutes, a plane lands, and a RR mechanic steps out carrying a new axle. He changes the axle out and prepares to depart. "How much do I owe you, my man," asks the lord.

 

"For what?"

 

"Why, for the axle, of course."

 

"There must be some mistake, my lord." Rolls Royce axles never break." And the mechanic steps into the airplane and takes his leave.

 

Leica should be like that.

I see that this thread is probably done for, but i've been seriously considering an R9. I'm really not sure so far, as i'm weighing many issues at once...should I just go digital, does digital really even compare to film in most circumstances and etc. The typical questions one would ask now...however, I got to hold one in my hands and look TTL. The heft and balance are almost perfect for me. I'm in love with this camera. But an update on this subject may help me make up my mind. Thanks for the information and help everyone!

I'm also new to the R8/R9, and found the R8 by itself a little too small and too heavy for my hands. Not bad, just not enough to get a solid grip on it while it's heavy enough for me to feel I need one. If it weighed half as much it would be fine in its current shape.<br>

<p>

But I just got a motor drive for it, and now feel it's superb. A nice, chunky, hefty piece that sits perfectly in my right hand. I never liked or used the hand strap on the Canon 1D/1Ds, but the one on the R8 MD is perfect for me. It also adds two perfectly placed shutter releases, one about 1" below the top on the front, and one on the vertical grip. The ergonomics are just perfect IMO, much better than the Canons I used to shoot.<br><p>

 

For the price of an R9 you could get a used R8+MD with charger, and a trip to Leica USA if necessary. That's what in the end made me decide to take my chances with an R8 instead of paying up for an R9. To save $1000 (or get a MD in the bargain) I figured I could be without a body for a couple of weeks...<br><p>

 

What I <b>really</b> like about these cameras is that all the controls have their own switches, the MLU is located where I can easily find it (no menu crap to twiddle with), while the drive speed, bracketing settings, etc, all have their own discrete switch or dial positions. All easily operated or checked by feel. A photographer's camera for sure.

<br><p>

If it starts scratching film after a few hundred rolls I figure I'll find out about it pretty soon. No big deal, I'll get it fixed, just like if something else broke. I'll keep my EOS3+PBE2 with Cameraquest adapter for backup for now. My guess is it'll end up collecting dust and will go on the block within six months. (Esp. given how I like the feel of the R8 w/MD.)

<br><p>

Some people just need to worry a little less. Learn to deal with issues as they arise rather than fretting endlessly over what might be or might have been. The R8 design flaw, if that's in fact what it is (as opposed to say, a manufacturing defect in that part), is a good thing to point out and be aware of. Thanks to all the good folks who brought this to our attention. I'll keep an eye on my film. But beyond that, it's just nothing worth losing any sleep over.