Classic or Contemporary 4x5 Field Camera

first, allow me preface this query by stating that:

 

1. i have poured through all the threads on this site, rec.photo, and

Quang-Tuan Luong's site for inputs

2. having stared in 35mm, then 6x6, now 4x5, i am just as bored

by 'which camera to buy' discussions, as the answer is always go rent

a few and buy the one you work best with. i, unfortunately, can't

rent either of the cameras i am considering.

 

after much research, i have narrowed my search for a 4x5 metal field

camera down to a used Tech IV or a new/almost new Toyo 45AII. i'm

sure both are fine instruments, overly-capable for what i intend to

use them for... backpacking. what i'd be interested in is:

 

-is the tech IV more solid & rigid then the toyo?

-does the modern design / features of the toyo (rotating back, etc)

make it a better choice?

-which is easier to use... quicker to set-up, compose, focus, etc?

 

overall, which camera, classic or contemporary, would be recommended

by some of you folks with experiences with them?

 

thanks,

scott

I use a Toyo 45AII in the field, and it is strong, rigid, easy and quick to set up and

use. I especially like the folding shade on the groundglass, I don't have to use a

darkcloth all the time. I don't use the rotating back very much, a simple reversing

back would probably do fine. Movements are adequate for field use. The bellows is

rather short, 300 mm max extension. For backpacking the camera is too heavy, about

6 pounds; for that purpose I'd rather have a lightweight wooden camera. But I

"backpack" out of my Jeep, and weight is not a major problem.

If you go for the Toyo, I'd suggest you consider the AX (which I have), instead of the AII. The AX has a repositionable, rather than a "rotating" back - saves about 1/2 pound and around $500 new. There are also minor differences in the ground glass, I believe, but the cameras are otherwise identical. Used prices may not differ as much, though, and it's important to remember that the backs are interchangeable within the Toyo system. The rotating back that came standard on the 45C monorail, for example, can be used on an AX.

 

As to comparing the Toyo to the Technika, I think the choice boils down to several factors. The Tech's rangefinder system can be very convenient for more casual, handheld 4x5 shooting - something that cannot be done with the Toyo. The Tech is also more of a (pricey) "system buy" compared to the Toyo - more accessory options, but they tend to be more costly, too, because of the brand status. I haven't compared the movement specs for the two, but I suspect the Tech may be more limited than the Toyo.

 

While I've been quite pleased with my Toyo 45AX, there are times that I wish it had interchangeable bellows, with a bag bellows option. And, there have been times when I wished that it was a Technika, for hand-held shots using the rangefinder. Can't have everything. ;-)

Both are more than adequate for landscapes, assuming that is what you as a backpacker will be shooting, mainly.

 

I believe the Linhof is more solid/rigid than the Toyo, but at the cost of added weight (and $$$ or age). No camera is 100% rigid, so you have to decide how much rigidity is enough for you. Rigidity provides precision (handy but not crucial for landscapes) and wind resistance (possibly very helpful for landscapes).

 

If you have weak shoulders like me, go with the Toyo. If you are going to be dropping your camera, go with the Linhof.

I'd go with the Toyo AII/AX recommendation but ..... have you considered the

Horseman FA/HD? Smaller and lighter.

They're both a little heavy for backpacking. Count on spending another $300-400 in the near future for a new bellows for the Technika, unless it's had one recently -- they don't last long.

I have owned both cameras. By far the Linhof is a much better camera, but they will both do the job.

 

My linhof Tech V does not have the rangefinder which makes it easier to handle.

 

Hope that helps....

If you live in the LA area, Samy's in Fairfax has a Toyo AII you can rent.

<i> for what i intend to use them for... backpacking </i><p>

 

Both might be a little heavy for that. Consider the Toho-Shimo, or possibly a used

Gowland.

Actually the Technika IV has a rotating back though I've never found any great advantage to rotating backs, it's about as fast and easy to remove the back and put it back on in the desired orientation as it is to rotate it.

 

I used a Technika V for years (same camera as the Technika IV for all practical purposes). There is a review of the Technika V on my web site if you're intersted (www.ellisgalleries.com). The Technika is very fast to set up. I've never used the Toyo but I can't imagine it's any faster than the Technika, especially if you mark the infinity position for your lenses on the rail so that you can start out at or near your focus position. If you appreciate fine precision machinery, very precise movements that stay exactly where you put them without any play or looseness, and a general overall feel of great quality and engineering you would enjoy using the Technika I think.

 

The Technika had two principal disadvantages for me: (1) it's inconvenient to use back movements since moving the back entails a series of loosening and unloosening of the four knobs that control the back, and (2) it's mildly inconvenient to use a 90mm lens (the bed has to be dropped when making a vertical photograph and then the front standard has to be repositioned to be parallel to the back), extremely inconvenient to use lenses from 75 to 90, and impossible to use lenses wider than 75mm without a wide angle focusing device which sells new for about $1,200 and is seldom seen on the used market. Even 75mm is a stretch, there's no room at all for movements and just to use the lens straight on you need a recessed lens board which itself is inconvenient to use.

 

Those were the two main reasons I finally sold mine after quite a few years of very pleasurable use. Even though I replaced it with what is supposed to be the best wooden camera made (an Ebony) I still sometimes miss the Linhof.

 

I don't know how the Toyo compares in either of these respects. If it too has inconvenient back movements and if it too is equally problematical with lenses wider than 90mm then I'd probably buy the Linhof. But if the Toyo is better in either of these respects without having any offsetting disadvantages then I'd seriously consider it instead of the Linhof (asuming, of course, that using wide angle lenses is something you plan to do and that you'll be using back movements occasionally). You might also check the bellows extension. I thought the Toyo was only 12 inches, the Linhof is 15 inches. With 15 inches you can use a normal 300mm lens, with 12 inches you would be restricted to about 240mm unless you went to a telephoto. But I could be wrong about the Toyo bellows, that's easy enough to check.

Did I really say "loosening and unloosening" the knobs? What do you suppose I meant by that? Is unloosening the opposite of loosening, so that one could infer that when I said "unloosening" I meant "tightening?" I hope so because I think that's what I meant to say.

Have you considered the Wista 45SP? I had used a Tech when in school, and bought the SP because it's nearly identical in design and setup, but at about a 1/3 the price. (Actually, movements are a little easier than the Tech...)

Accessories are also cheaper, and the lensboards are the same size. The widest lens I use on my SP is a 72mm XL, and I have no vin. problems.

 

Ben

Scott: The Technika gives you most flexibility in the choice of lenses because of its bellows draw which allows you to use lenses from 58 mm to 300mm without having to resort to telephotos for the 300. Most other cameras like toyo field do not sport such bellows draw. In the Technika you will need the wide angle adapter for the 58 and 65 mm lenses and yes these adapters are expensive and quite rare in eBay and their $1200 new price quite formidable. As for the tilting /rotating on the Technika back I leave the knobs snug and loosening and re-tightening the knobs is not as much of a hassle. The 75 mm lens can be awckward to set up on the Technika but otherwise I find the speed and ease of setting up the Technika an overwhelming advantage. Technikas are expensive, not because they are a brand-pride item like designer jeans but because of their marvelous construction and design; this is why they keep their value more than other cameras and for good reason. A Technika weighs 6 pounds, not a feather but still quite portable and compact.

I love my lowly Tec III. I say this because a friend shooter and I used to go out

to shoot pretty pictures a decent amount. He was so proud of his Toyo and

really used this time as bragging rites. "... my camera can do this better than

your older one, and why would you want an older camera anyway..." and blah

blah blah. I just shot away, puttin on my 90mm to my 360mm lens and just

quietly shot away. One day he was bragging about the rigidity of his vs mine

and I said that they are both metal and all of a sudden, he disappeared from

site. We were climbing a ridge and he slipped and took a tumble with his

camera in hand. He was ok but his camera took a hit and the front standards

snapped in two! Looking at it, it really looked like "white metal" and come to

find out, he has had his camera fixed numerous times because of slipping

and something on his camera snapping... Just in repairs alone, he has paid

for his camera about 4 times over due to repairs. My recommendation... go for

the Tec IV and don't fall!

Technikas are famous for their toughness. I know someone that dropped his down a cliff, it rolled about 20 feet and was not the worse for wear after that. Yes, Toyos and Linhofs are both metal but not likely the same metal. You do not get something for nothing, although the reverse is sometimes true. The Technika IV is David Muench's favorite, and his must have rolled down cliffs as David scoured the country for years and years. He still uses the Technika IV although he could choose anything he pleases.

Brian Ellis , jan 19, 2004; 12:56 p.m.

Did I really say "loosening and unloosening" the knobs? What do you suppose I meant by that? Is unloosening the opposite of loosening, so that one could infer that when I said "unloosening" I meant "tightening?" I hope so because I think that's what I meant to say. ++++++++++

 

The words are interchangable. > In english like photography rules may be broken but first you need to know them.