I know bigger is better for most things..

Hello and good evening gentleman (and ladies)

 

I would like to start playing with a larger format system, and I

would love to have some of your imput - here is my situation.

 

I am a student, I have been into photography for only about two years

seriously but it was a hard deep dive. I shoot 35 mm with a Nikon

N80 or one of my small army of Olypmus OMs. I've experimented with

medium format via the Holga, the original Diana, box cameras, and

other 50s era platic wonders. I've got my own darkroom with a

bessler 23c III enlarger, and my photographic interests range from

fine art to fashion, fetish/erotic, and even travel. (two european

backpacking trips under my young photo belt already)

 

I know this seems obnoxiously broad, but should I be looking at

medium or large format? Studio work is probably my number one

interest if that helps (though I have no lighting equipment), and I

am very much into alternative processes. One final note, I have

about 700$ to play with (though I'd like to not spend it all on one

piece of equipment), and I'm not neccessarily looking at purchasing

THE SYSTEM which I will build on and own for my entire professional

career.

 

That was an awful lot, thanks in advance.

 

-Lauren Reynolds

Hi Lauren.

 

Since you mention alt. processes prominently, which indicates contact printing, I think you're faced with a few very different options. 1) Enlarged negatives from LF or MF negatives. These can be made in a traditional darkroom, or digitally. 2)Camera made LF negatives for contact printing. Each approach has advantages and drawbacks, and you're the only one qualified to determine which is best for you. I personally like the directness and simplicity of camera made negatives, but I'm a very simple and direct person. Once you've determined wether you will contact print camera made negatives, or enlarged negatives, more specific advice can be offered. I like to make very casual, natural light portraits, but I'm addicted to large negatives, so my next camera will be a 4x5 Graflex Super D. It's an SLR with a focal plane shutter, which makes using barrel lenses practical, and it's designed to be used handheld. I mention it because I think you might be interested, and the cameras are not as commonly used as field cameras or monorail cameras, as they are not as versatile, but what they do, they do very well. Good luck.

Dear Lauren,

 

For $700 you'll get a lot more bang for the buck with LF BUT MF is a lot more convenient. This is a choice that few people really think about, but it is very real. Quite frankly I use both. Take a look at my web-site, rogerandfrances.com for some admittedly biased advice on books on the subject and information on photography in general including the equipment I use.

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

There are so many questions and considerations here that I think you'll have to do your own investigating and decision-making. I'll mention only the quality difference between the two formats. I use a 6x7 Pentax system and various 4x5 systems. I print only black and white, originally in my darkroom but digitally the last couple years (scanning the negatives). In a traditional darkroom I usually saw no difference in print quality between the two formats with prints up to 11x14. There was a very noticeable difference when going from 35mm to medium format even with 8x10 prints but not so with medium and large format for me. So if print quality is your main reason for thinking of large format, and if you don't typically print larger than 11x14, medium format might be your best bet.

 

If your $700 budget includes lens, film holders, dark cloth and loupe in addition to the camera you won't get very far with large format. OTOH, you can buy one of the older twin lens Mamiyas (or maybe Rolleis) for a good bit less than $700. Even Pentax 6x7s can be had for around $350 used these days and you could get the 105mm lens for it for about another $300, maybe less, used. I've been very pleased with the quality of the Pentax lenses.

One thing about a view type camera, for either large or medium format, is that you can use a very wide variety of lenses. Even a Holga lens. If you're interested in playing with this type of thing you can create many different looks.

I suggest you go find Roger Hicks' book on medium and large format. He alluded to its existence in his response above, but I think it would answer a great many of your questions. I found it three weeks ago, and although I have some amateur level experience with both large and medium formats, I have found it useful summary treatment of all the options and advantages of both approaches.

Not trying to talk you out of LF (I love huge chromes) but if you plan to print other than contact, don't forget an enlarger (or head?) that can take 4x5 negs / slides. That's gotta fit into your $700 too (Ouch). An in between alternative might be a inexpensive 4x5 camera (I'm thinking Graphic of sorts) and a rollfilm back to shoot medium format film and print it on your existing enlarger. This could be a stepping stone into LF and you could always shoot 4x5s to contact or have processed outside. I am not a strong advocate of Graflex focal plane shutters for the benefit of using barrel lenses. I think they cause vibration, and lens-in-shutter combos that were sold as Graphic lenses aren't at all expensive.

My advice is always contrary to others but...

 

Either get a nice MF for your $700. I might suggest a C330 with a couple of lens and a mirror finder, or a RB67 with a couple of backs and a good tripod, OR find a 5x7 or 8x10 LF camera with lens. $700 is going to be a stretch for 8x10 with lens, but if you work hard, you might find one. The reason for this is the cost of a good 4x5 enlarger is going to eat up a good portion of that 700 bucks. And no, we are not talking new here.

 

Good luck and keep us informed. LF is a demanding mistress, but well worth the price you pay.

 

tim in san jose

Thank you all,

 

You Gentleman have been very helpful.

 

To Jay - I must say that this graflax of which you speaks absolutly intrigues me, and I will investigate it more, and you are right about the contact printing, I too like the idea of the ease of a straight from the camera negative..To Mr. Hicks I will certainly investigate your books.. To Mr. Donovan -- I really like the idea of a 4 x 5 with a rollfilm back, and I will keep on looking.

 

To all of you thanks a billion for advising a barely legal photographer, everyone's adivice was different and helpful. As it stands now I'm lined up to check out some used hassey equipment at my local dealer to see if they'll give me a good price, and I may be able to scrounge up another couple hundred from education bonds for even more equipment (after all, I am a photo major!)

 

Quite frankly though, I still want to go larger and will probably try to score an old 4x5 off e-bay and see where that takes me. (something about the LF cameras seem so real and solid and inspiring to me)

 

I will let you know what happens.

 

thanks again,

 

Lauren

MF is cool. I see a huge difference between that and 35mm. As others have said, your problem is that you already have a 23C and will have to get something larger if you go LF. Personally, I see a huge difference between MF and LF, not to mention the ability to use swings and tilts. If you're a real scrounger, you can still find old Omega D series enlargers for a couple hundred bucks or less. For $700 it's just barely possible to put together an old 4x5 like B&J, Calumet, or maybe an Omega (Toyo), plus a 4x5 enlarger. You'll still get nickel and dimed to death with holders, another lens, the parts the enlarger was missing, etc. OTOH, you can get a really nice C330 and a couple lenses for that same $700 and not have to change anything in the darkroom. If you need a new enlarging lens, even that will fit in the budget. My student days were 30 years ago, and I went both ways over time. First, an inexpensive 4x5 outfit, then the MF stuff when the prices came down recently. IMHO, you'll learn far more using the 4x5 outfit, than any other system, and it's probably best for studio and alt process work.

Lauren, if you live in a big/large enough city, I would try and become an assistant to a

commercial or advertising photographer. Lots of grunt work and, hopefully, lots of

learning. Some of your interests, it would be more valuable to learn about lighting,

studio setup, even tripods, compendium hoods, filters, etc. and see what formats work

best for each assignment. GOOD LUCK...

Lauren,

 

Though you've already gotten a lot of good advice, I feel obligated to add SOMETHING, being that I'm still in high school, and just recently got into 'serious' photography.

 

Though I would advise you to rent before you buy, it doesn't work on a student's budget, and I've never taken that bit of good advice. See if you can find another photographer or a dealer who will let you borrow something for a day.

 

LF and MF are two very different experiences, and each has its place. If you're ready for the commitment to LF, by all means, try it. If worst comes to worst, you can sell the camera for what you paid for it.

 

A few places I must mention, Midwest Photo Exchange and Glenn View Camera both have lots of LF stuff. Also, I'm not sure where you are, but in NYC is Lens and Repro. They're the Toys R Us of large format, it's an experience just going in and looking around. They'll be happy to answer all of your questions.

 

Good luck!

Another option you might consider is Mamiya offers to 2 645 format camera outfits for under $800. One consists of a Mamiya 645E, a power winder, and an 80mm 2.8 lens for $799. The other drops the power winder, but include the body and lens for $699. Considering you've already got 2x3 enlarger and you interest in fashion photography, medium format seems ideal.

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=213269&is=REG

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=185992&is=REG

 

Oh and Mamiya does offer student discounts.

You already have an enlarger that will handle MF... With $700- $900 as a working budget, LF is out of the question at this point in time because you need another enlarger, lenses, film holders, developing hangers, tanks, etc......

 

 

Any decent MF will move you along... Skip the Hassy at this point in time because she is like dating a supermodel... You can afford the first date but keeping up with her life style is going to break you...

 

6x6 or 6x7 is where you want to be (can a 23 do 6x7? dunno), as opposed to 645... Anyway, you need to be in a Bronica SQ, RB, or a Rollei 3.5, Pentax 67 (if the enlarger can hack it), or <my choice> Mamiya C220 and a lens assortment and you will be under $700 plus have 3 times the focusing range for getting close to the erotic parts, leaving money for pyro, etc...

 

 

have fun ... denny

Though the above answers are all good advice, I would like to add one more thing.

 

It IS possible to get into LF for $700 if you wait around for a good deal. There are really two ways you can go. If you wait around, either one will turn up. The first is to buy a 4x5 enlarger (like an Omega D-2), used, and then buy a small 4x5 kit - camera, film holders, lens, accessories. You should be able to find a cut film developing tank quite inexpensively, and if not, I'm sure someone has one they'd be willing to give you. The same goes with the film holders.

 

The alternative is to work in 8x10. The advantage to 8x10 is that you will most likely contact print, so you don't have to worry about an enlarger. On the other hand, startup cost is higher, and a full kit for $700 would be pushing it. However, at a camera show here in NJ, yesterday, I saw a gentleman selling a Calumet C-1 (8x10) with tripod and a 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar for around $500. This would have been a great beginner kit for someone, had I not convinced him to sell me the lens only - for a great deal. $230. In an Ilex #5 Universal.

Omega 2D enlarger ---> $200.00 <p>

4x5 Graphic View II camera ---> $200.00 <p>

Money for Schneider lens ---> $200.00 <p>

Other misc ---> $100.00 <p>

LF experience ---> PRICELESS!!! <p>

Its not an ultra-complete or a showy LF system, but it can be done on your budget. <p>

It is affordable, you will learn if you want to invest in a better system, and you can resell it and probably get ALL of your money back!!!

Since you've already got a 23C you're perfectly set up to do MF. Get a 2x3 Crown Graphic with a roll back and a few cut film holders. It may be all you ever need, but it's perfect training equipment to learn for a 4x5, should you ever decide you need larger negatives.