Shi'ite Ashura celebrations London

You know the more I look at the top picture, the more I like it.

 

If Brian could have got the guy in the foreground's left hand in, this would be an amazing picture... all those diagonals!

 

Can you post more photos of Old Trafford?

No, no Frank, you are thinking of someone who actually <b>cares</b>. See my "Alright, I give....." thread.

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Unless people are cussing and spitting on each other, I'm just going to spend my time making fun of things and arguing about street photography technique.

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Leaves me more time for playing legos. Weeeeeeeeeeeee!

I'm stunned to discover the real pro-west Harvey. But hey, I always knew.

So we get back on politics and this thread will be 9 miles long and last for a week. What I find curious about these pix is that these guys are apparently celebrating in a public square in a non-muslim country. A photographer's paradise to be sure, but they are exposing themselves to derision from less tolerant folk. The light is fantastic-look at the outlining of the bodies in the first pic. Nice work Brian. Frank: terrorism will end only when the religious fanatics and exremists of the world's religions agree to accept, understand and respect the good in other religions. When do you figure that will happen? [The Man from Texas gonna get it done for us?]

Everything you need to know about US policy is set out concisely and openly for all to read here.....

 

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

 

It was formulated in 1997. (Long before Bush came to power and long before 9/11) It deserves a careful read.

 

In fact a spokesman for P.N.A.C. was on Ch4 news here in the UK just yesterday evening talking in relation to the Bush state visit.

PNAC - Weren't these the same people who, in the years prior to 9/11, cited the "need" for a "new Pearl Harbor," so that America could get on with its business abroad and at home?<p>

 

BTW, nice pics Brian. I especially like the first one.

Sorry I just couldn't resist another post... blood vessels bursting in my head after reading Frank's latest.

 

US interventions in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan were both about control of oil pipeline supply routes. In both cases threats were emerging from rival operators i.e. Milosevic and the Taliban, to their plan to assert full control over supply routes from Middle East, Caspian and Caucasus oilfields.

 

Do you honestly think the US interfered out of a bleeding hart in these places? Give me a break! How do you explain Rwanda and the Congo: wars which dwarf what happened in Kosovo in their horrific barbarity and sheer numbers of innocent civilians killed in (millions in each case). Where was the US then? How do you explain the fact that the US was perfectly happy to work with the Taliban leadership (yes, that�s the truth), until they refused the US access to their territories in order to build pipelines.

 

�USA it is transparent and public knowledge�. What planet are you on?!? Norman Mailer said it best when he described the US as having entered a �pre-fascist� state. Dixie Chicks, racial profiling, erosions of civil liberties, government associated stations churning out mind-control propaganda (Fox etc)� haven�t we seen this somewhere before? �Quick, give up your civil liberties, the foreign bogey-man is coming to get you and don�t go on strike, don�t speak out against criminal wars it�s unpatriotic!�

Oh, sorry my mistake. Now I understand your argument. Genocial wars of aggression by the US are actually for the good of the whole world and the whole situation is just a big misunderstanding. Now you put it like that, I think the US should invade more oil rich countries... after all it's only for their good.

 

How stupid of me, why didn't I see it before! So Russia, France, China and Germany have simply misunderstood the US's imperial ambitions. How silly of them.

 

I wonder if you would be so magnanimous if tens of thousands of women and children were being bombed to death and terrorised by a foreign occupation army in America.

 

I�ll tell what I would do. I would follow the lead of the brave Iraqi people fighting a relentless guerrilla war to free their land from US clutches and from the US�s puppet Vichy government.

Frank, I don't assume anything. I don't have to. I just read what you write. And

remember what you wrote.

 

Back to photography. Brian, these are awesome photos, both artistically and

journalistically (is that a word?)

Godness, and not a peep out of our man of the hour!

Frank how are we in the UK (Yes we are part of the EU as well) "getting a free ride"?

 

We have sent tens of thousands of soldiers/airmen/marines/sailors to Iraq since the conflict began. Hundreds of tanks etc etc. Many UK servicemens lives lost. Our government has supported the US government pretty much every step of the way. (Even Mr Bush dropping in for tea with the Queen will cost the tax-payer £5 Million UK in policing costs!)

 

For all this a grateful US administration has imposed punitive tarriffs on any steel the UK tries to export to the USA and has declared it illegal for UK businesses to bid for any "re-building" contracts resulting from the war. Thanks guys. Truly a free ride!

 

Other EU countries (Italy , Spain) have thousands of troops in Iraq at present and are losing their men in action as well. Poland also has thousands of troops in Iraq.

You really don't have a clue about capitalist economics do you?

 

First and third worlds are in fact the same "world". The reason they exist is precisely because of the systems in play in the invasion of Iraq i.e. imperialist appropriation of foreign raw materials and markets. Foreign aid supports poorer countries? I'm sorry to sound harsh, but you really don't have the remotest clue do you?!? Do you know what the ratio of "aid" capital inflow to capital outflow to foreign corporations is in most poor countries? Look up a few examples.

 

Your tired, false, implicitly racist "white man's burden" argument has been used since the colonial "scramble for Africa" in the late 19th century to justify aggression, oppression, genocide and economic exploitation of nations (it is why the third world is "third"). History teaches us that the Iraqis will not stop fighting until their land is free, just as the Palestinians will not stop fighting until they can live free of occupation and oppression. It is you that is not living in the real world.

 

Goodnight!

I am sick of this false image the USA feeds itself of brave, fresh faced Yankee heroes constantly saving the world time after time for an entire century whilst decadent, lazy, effete, pinko Brits just roll over in bed and let it all happen! Get a history book Frank! You may find out we have stood up for ourselves and for others and stood alongside you (the USA) more times in the last century than you care to credit.

Frank P,

 

I am with you. I am a retired USAF officer, Viet Nam vet, father of a female retired USAF officer, and father of a brand new Army 2/Lt. And since my father was born in Scotland and his father spent 26 years in the British empire, I claim to be a Brit also. My grandfather was part of Kitchener's expedition to the Sudan and knew how to make good Arabs, aided by a Lee-Enfield. I despise ALL religious loonies, Christian conservatives, Jewish ultra-conservatives, and Mohammedan crazies, to name the most prominent.

 

I really don't give a damn what they do to one another in the unflushed toilets they inhabit, but stay the hell out my country, and stick your oil where the sun doesn't shine. I have some critical views on Bush and his bunch, but getting rid of the Taliban and Saddam are good things.

No one has mentioned that oil coming out of Iraq was being sold in Euro dollars for a couple of years prior to the latest, uhm, invasion, and also refused to return to selling it in American currency. Which country couldn�t afford this to become a commodity trend? And which European country didn�t switch to Euro dollars when they had the chance? The USA must, and can only, exist on a warring economy, has done since 1939. All empires collapse, hold on gang.

I like the moral high ground you're trying to occupy--I want your side to be

right, both on this page and in the bigger picture. (Well, except for the

shrillness part). But in order to do so, you'll need to provide an outline for

solutions, not a string of platitudes. Mr. Petronio's asked you twice, and I for

one am curious if you can cough up.

 

Speaking of "real world", alas, the scenario Mr. Petronio trots out looks a lot

more like today's reality than your vision of Iraqis and Palestinians fighting

until they are free.

 

Quite honestly all of this confuses me, as it perhaps should you too, Mr.

Cantona. Not least because--in spite of our instincts to make things Black and

White (on topic!)--it turns out there are smart people on both sides of this

argument, making valid points. Again, both here in the forum and out in the

broader world.

 

And in the end, no matter how right you are, shouting slogans ain't gonna to

make no babies stop going without medicine, ain't gonna make huge

contracts stop getting awarded, ain't gonna stop people driving big cars for no

good reason, ain't gonna undo ten years of bad antiplanning that went into

this necessary-evil clusterF@^& war...

 

Nope, only thing that will come close to that is some solid, respectful dialogue,

in which all parties are interested more in moving forward than in being right.

 

Mr. Kennedy's talk of countries-as-unflushed toilets and good-Arabs=dead

Arabs is precisely the kind of arrogant, racist, superficial mouthing off that gets

people pissed off at the US all over the world. I say this with a pair of shoes in

the corner still dirty from walking around in the muck of which he writes.

 

There are a lot of unpleasant places in the world, and to our evident

displeasure, sometimes we have to think about them. Sometimes we're called

upon to put our collective minds together and invent and refine and slog

through solutions to problems in these places.

 

Perhaps somewhere between sputtery, steamroller arrogance and guilt-

struck, 'everthing-the-US-does-is-wrong' indignation--somewhere between

"white man's burden" and white liberal guilt in other words--IF WE'RE LUCKY,

we might be able to blaze a path forward.

 

By the way, Brian--Nice pictures. I admire your sticktoitiveness on the demos

and public action photography Very Much.

 

There now, wasn't that nice? Now everybody can go to bed... Night night.

"This arrogant, superior, scornful Westerner attitude"

 

How nice of you to mention it, Olivier. Personally, I confuse it with the right to

hold my own opinions but then I'm not a caring, sharing human being like

yourself.

Strong photos, Brian, emotionally laden. Does England have an open door policy on immigration from all of the former colonies which remain members of the Commonwealth?

 

BTW, I believe flagellation has been an exercise practiced by many of mankind's religions, certainly Christianity in Spain, for example.

Eric

 

Sorry for the delay in replying, it was at Park Lane on Sunday, It was an amazing thing

to see, the pictures don't really do it justice. (I've added a few more this morning)

and yes with the Bush vist it will be a busy couple of days...

 

B

There certainly are some very ignorant, provincial, "fundamentalist" minds on this forum.

 

BTW, I always knew this festival as Moharram - haven't heard Ashura before. Or maybe I've got them confused?

Islam was indeed at the forefront of science and mathematics about 1000 years ago, but it ended there -- probably due to conservative beliefs intolerant of progress and that it wasn/t written in the Koran. Sorry that i don't respect its rotten carcass.

<i>"BTW, I always knew this festival as Moharram - haven't heard Ashura before. Or maybe I've got them confused?"</i>

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The first month of the Islamic calender is the month of Moharram. The tenth day of Moharram (Ashara means ten in Arabic) is the day of martyrdom of Imam Hussein. A lot of people interchange the two; talking about events of Moharram only ever refer to this event.

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To the ignorants who have posted to this thread: we loonies have thick skin and, it seems, a more balanced view of the world. Sure, there are extremists and they generally get all the popular press but some of us live our lives peacefully and in harmony with our neighbours treating them with the respect that they deserve for the actions that that they themselves take, not those of a minority who belive they represent everyone.

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Moiz (a Shi'ite Muslim living in Britain.....with a little less respect for some forum members)

Moiz

 

Thanks for the info

"we loonies have thick skin "

 

Which, being the case, makes me doubt you're a loony. I have no problem with people who keep their religous beliefs within sane limits. I've met religous people of all faiths, and none, who are far from being daft and whose presence makes this world a better place.

 

I reserve my ire for the fanatics of all faiths and those who apologise for them.

I understand where you are coming from Harvey. Unfortunately, the people you see in the photos are not extremists or fanatics. Matam (chest-beating) is an act practiced by all Shi'ites, young and old, male and female (though the practice of using knives and chains is not accepted in some sects, including mine). The family of Imam Hussein sat in lines performing matam after his death.

 

I know that you are not trying to belittle the religion of Islam as a whole, but your lack of knowledge of the act of matam, something that is a core part of a Shi'ite muslims life, led you to label the people in the photos as fanatics. They aren't.