Leica .85 VF Flare, is it Really That Bad?

Hello, All. I have read in a few threads here in Leica forum that

Leica 0.85 are notorious for patch flare.

 

I am offered a really good deal on an excellent++ with all the strap,

box and paper Leica M6 TTL 85VF. I currently own a .72 TTL. Any

comments/observations from current owners of .85's? I might add: TO

BUY, OR NOT TO BUY, THAT IS THE QUESTION.

 

Thank you and appreciate all your answers.

 

Louie

In my humble opinion the answer is NO. Please consider that the whole flair issue is driven by a handful of vocal people complaining on the internet. Flair is a non-issue with me and I have the .85TTL along with the .72TTL. If it really was such a big deal, would 10,000 + people be buying Leica Ms every year? Look at who is complaining here on the Leica Forun, the LUG and a couple other on line forums and you see the same few self-proclaimed experts complaining over and over. They are not out taking pictures, they are here on the web complaining.

I think the flare problem is very subjective, which is why some folks claim it doesn't exist, while for others it's bad enough to warrant going back to an M3 (or, now, upgrade to an MP). It probably has a lot to do w/the shape of your face, whether you wear glasses, etc. In *my* experience, the flare can be a nuisance, but it isn't so bad or prevalent that I can't use my M6 0.85 (otherwise I would have returned it). That said, I'm considering having the MP 0.85 finder installed if/when Leica gets around to offering the service.

It's certainly a non-issue for me, but if it's only a few people on the net who complained, they sure managed to make enough noise so that Leica went back to the more costly-to-produce rangefinder design. Too bad those same people couldn't have wailed on about the framing inaccuracy while they were on their rant, but maybe they didn't notice the framing while the patch was flaring in their eyes ;>) I have 2 M4's which are similar to the MP and neither of them flare as readily as the M6 or my early M7's. But at least the M4's framelines are larger than the MP's. And the battery cap never comes off ;>)

 

I've read conflicting reports from people comparing to the 0.72 that the 0.58 is the worst and others saying the 0.85 is. I don't argue that the rangefinders *can* flare, and that the M4-P-M6-M6TTL-early M7 are more apt to do so within a narrower allowable range of camera positioning with respect to the eye, as compared with the M4-2 and earlier, or the MP and current M7. I can see where this could be an annoyance to anyone trying to quickly focus on a subject where taking even a second to reposition the camera to cancel the flare would result in a missed shot. But I have to wonder, if a great porportion of your photography involves needing to focus quickly, why would you choose a rangefinder to begin with? If there's no time to reposition the camera to cancel the flare, then there surely isn't time to reframe after bullseyeing the subject in the patch. Wouldn't a reflex where you can focus anywhere on the screen be more suited to that kind of shooting? And if you practice the suggestions for quick shooting with an M given here many times--zone and/or prefocusing--wouldn't you have time to reposition, that is if you would be willing to do so rather than throw a tantrum?

 

Louie, if the flare isn't an issue for you with the 0.72 I don't believe it will be with the 0.85 either. But others will surely chime in to disagree. My advice is to get one in your hands and see for yourself.

Louie, I went from the M6 'Classic' to the .85TTL and I find that it flares much less often, and in a more predictable fashion. I know what circumstances will cause it to flare and I can correct for it quickly. I'm sure that differences in individual eyes and facial structure must play a part, as well as camera to camera variation.

 

Having said that, the only situation that would cause my old M2 to flare would cause blindness, too; i.e. pointing it at the sun. I think that might be what cheeses some people off. Leica knew at one time how to make a flare-free finder, but in the process of making the camera cheaper to produce they messed it up. Now they charge you extra for what used to come as standard equipment.

<i>Flair is a non-issue with me</i><p>Cheer up, Steve. Not everybody is blessed with what the Oxford Dictionary defines as "1) a natural ability or talent. 2) stylishness. - ORIGIN C19: from Fr., from <i>flairer</i> 'to smell', based on L. <i>fragrare</i> 'smell sweet'."<p> But if you were talking about RF flare and it really was a non-issue, would hundreds of Leica users be buying the <a href="http://www.konermann.net/shade.html">Shade</a>? <p><i>Look at who is</i><b> denying the issue</b> <i>here on the Leica Forum, the LUG and a couple other on line forums and you see the same few self-proclaimed experts</i><b> denying </b><i>over and over. They are not out taking pictures, they are here on the web </i><b> denying. ;o)</b><p>BTW, "how many photo.netters does it take" to bring up a discussion on this same topic over and over again...? Cheers.

I think there's a distinction to be made between denying that the patch flares, and denying that it's an insurmountable problem that required Leica obsoleting the first year's production of M7's to correct. I used to deny that the patch flares, until I tried and tried and tried and finally once I figured out how to do it now I can do it easily. Sort of like perservering past the coughing and dizziness learning how to inhale a cigarette.

 

But I still deny that it's a serious enough problem to warrant selling an M6 for $1000 and buying an MP for $2600, though I'm sure it's a sufficient rationalization to convince yourself the purchase is a necessity.

Yes, it flares. Rarely. I have had the camera for about 4 months, and have shot around 50 rolls of film with it. I use the 0.85 viewfinder and have experienced what I describe as minor annoyance. I can't compare it to any other body (I don't own another body). It certainly hasn't stopped me from getting the pictures I want. Nor have I felt the need to bodge a fix onto the camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Doug

Vancouver, Canada

Flare exists to some minor extent on the M6TTL and M7 bodies that I have, regardless of the viewfinder magnification. I recognize what's happening when flare occurs (sighting off the horizontal axis of the viewfinder) and adjust accordingly. I have NEVER not been able to minimize/eliminate the flare by adjusting my eye position to nearer the center of the horizontal and vertical axis, via successive approximation. Therefore, I consider this issue an occasional, minor annoyance but certainly not a design defect. Others may and probably will disagree. ;-)

Louie, nobody mentioned that we're being told that M7's over serial# 2,85x,xxx have improved flare-reducing optics in the finder. I think one poster said the number was 2,88x,xxx. So you might check the serial# on the one you're thinking of getting.

I had less flare on my .85 M6TTL (w/ a Lutz thingy installed) than I do with my current .72 M6TTL.

I am not an expert on Leica. I just want to put in my vote. I have a M6 TTL 0.58. It

flares. I am not sure if it has anything to do with me wearing the eye glasses, but the

flare situation is not a minor one. I have notice that the flare gets worse if the light

source is from the top left corner with respect to my position. Re-position my eye

does help but not enough to help me focusing. IMHO, I would rather have leica fix

this flare problem than the framing accuracy.

to anyone who says there is no flare, I have it one specific situation: The living room in my son's home. The problem is that two of my grandchildren live there. I take lots of picture and in that room with a large glass sliding door, the flare is awful no matter what position I am in. I tried several Leicas and the best is an old M3. An M2 has a little problem as does an M4 even a M5 but the M6s are the worst as did two M7s. One M6 is now at Leica for supposedly a full upgrade to MP specs. It will take 3 months. So anyone who says flare doesn't exist is plain wrong. My M6s date from 1983 and 1987.

Subject: Response to Leica .85 VF Flare, is it Really That Bad?

 

One can't compare the non-metered Leicas to the metered ones, in other words, an M3/M2/M4 will flare less because they have no meter. The M6/M6TTL/M7's have meters in them and so because of a "compromise" in the design to get the meter to work they just flare more. I move my eye to the side and the flare goes away.....

My point being the earlier Leicas didn't flare because they use the old "meterless" design.

 

Over to the next person.......

Louie, THE FLARE IS THAT BAD, at least on mine it is.

 

You could put on the SHADE which should probably alleviate the problem. (No I don't have it.) Anyway try out that 0.85 in bright surroundings before you buy.

 

Many people also claim the 35mm frame lines aren't useable for eyeglass wearers. I am bespectacled but they are much more manageable than the blasted rangefinder flare.

I still have a standing offer of $50 for those crappy Leicas with rangefinders that white out. So far, no one's taken me up on it.

THANK YOU ALL, for all the honest, based-on-experience, diverse and informative answers to my question. The offer given to me on this M6 TTL .85 is tempting, considering the prices I have seen both at KEH and Tamarkin, which is why I have asked the question. I have been shooting an SLR and medium format for 2 decades, and recently have "rewarded" myself for working 8-hours a day-- by purchasing a Leica M6 TTL 72vf :-)

 

Based on various answers I received, I now have a clear idea on how an M6 TTL .85 behaves. And based on these answers, I now can answer my question: "TO BUY, OR NOT TO BUY, THAT IS THE QUESTION"!

 

As always, gentlemen, thank you so much for your informative answers. I do appreciate the time you have spent in answering my question.

 

Louie

Louie, I have 2 .85 TTL M6's for the last 4 years and have never had a problem with white out of the rangefinder patch. I wear contact lenses, not glasses when I photograph. No problems at all with flare. With all the talk of the flare problem, I am not sure why I haven't noticed. I am sure that it is real to those whom it afflicts.

It's the worst feature about my new M7. There have been times where I couldn't focus the camera, in a room with harsh overhead lights. My M3s <B><big>never</big></B> do this.