Continuation of Jay's thread below

Mike, you have received many excellent answers. My experience is a bit

different from the others, and, in the hopes that you will find it

instructive, I will give you bits of it here. The advice I have to

offer is, in essence, not much different from what others have

suggested, and frankly, I hope you find it discouraging. If you do

not, go for it--you have what it takes.

 

Many years ago, I gave up other things that made money to devote

myself full time to making photographs as fine art. Before 1967 I

taught emotionally disturbed kids in a psychiatric hospital. From

1967-1974 I taught private photography classes. At the end of 1974 I

gave up all teaching to devote myself full-time to making my own

photographs. I have been able to support myself entirely from print

sales since 1975. No commercial work. Virtually no teaching. (Between

1975 and 1999 I taught fewer than a half-dozen workshops.) And I have,

and have always had, zero back-up resources--no rich background, no

saving account, no investments. Even today, no health insurance--and I

am 61. Until 1999, long-range financial planning meant trying to

figure out where next month's mortgage payment was coming from.

Short-range planning was trying to figure out where this month's

mortgage payment was coming from. And given those definitions, I never

did any long-range planning. Many, many, months the mortage was paid

with Visa cards. The last few years have been relatively good ones, so

now long-range planning can sometimes stretch a month or even two or

three.

 

Can one make a living making only the photographs one wants to make?

Definitely yes. But it is not for everyone. You have to accept an

extraordinarily high degree of risk. You also must be willing to work

virtually non-stop. When not photographing or in the darkroom my time

is spent figuring out how to sell, or actually selling, our work.

Paula and I average an 18-hour work day, 7 days a week. In the 13.5

years we have been together we have taken 3 days off.

 

Has it been worth it? Absolutely, yes. I have no complaints. My life

and work are fully integrated. If I were handed a million dollars it

would take the constant financial pressure off, but I wouldn't change

a thing. But I would not recommend my way to anyone else. The risks

are too great. To succeed, you need to accept that and be able not

only to tolerate it, but to embrace it and be willing to work harder

and smarter when things are not going well. And there will be many

times when things will not go well.

 

So far, every assistant who has come to work for us, and we have had a

number of them, after seeing how hard we work, and that we have cut

out from our lives everything non-essential to our photography--has

chosen to do something else to make money.

 

Be thankful, Mike, that you have your engineering skills and a decent

job. If you are passionate enough about doing your photography, you

will find the time and a way to do it as much as possible. If, over

the years, you find you are still passionate about making photographs

and that you still want to make a life from it, that it is virtually

all you think about in what few spare moments you have, you will find

a way to pursue it full time. And it will come as a natural function

of your living. But you must be strongly motivated, and extremely

creative about how to make money from doing what you love to do, as

well as being extremely creative about making your photographs.

 

I always tried to live my dreams rather than fantasizing about them.

Anyone, including you, can do what I have done if you are sufficiently

motivated--there is nothing special about me in that regard--in the

fact that I have done it. But there are some other things you will

need besides high risk tolerance and the ability to live without any

financial security whatsoever: you must have persistence--do not get

discouraged, though there will be endless discouraging occurances; you

must have absolute confidence in yourself; you must know

photography--at least that part of it that you pursue--inside and out;

and you must become extremely knowledgeable about the History of

Photography so you can converse intelligently with those you would

like to be your peers.

 

I think everyone does exactly what they want to do. If security is

more important than pursuing photography full time--then going the

secure route is what you want to do. There is nothing bad about this.

There are many damn good reasons to choose it. Having a family is

perhaps the best one. I always wanted to have a family, but I was not

with the right woman at the right time and it never happened. Could I

have done what I have done had I a family to support? I believe I

could have, but I really can't ever know for sure.

 

Everyone is different: I remember talking with friends who were

commercial photographers--I would envy them making money and they

would envy my photographing only what I wanted to photograph--but

neither of us, for even a moment, had even the slighest thoughts of

changing what we did. I was not willing to make the compromises

necessary in the commercial world, and they could not give up a

relatively secure income. These things are fascinating--each of our

differences makes the world endlessly fascinating.

Thanks for the great input, Michael. I enjoy your advertisements in each issue of BW magazine, particularly your 2-page 8x20 reproductions. Several issues back I showed your Shore Acres image to many people, because that is one of my favorite places. Eventually I hope to see some of your work in person. I have been to your website, and I do remember being stunned by the fact that you picked up an 8x10 a year (I think--I read this a few weeks back) after starting with a 35mm and how you've supported yourself with photography ever since. Now I have some more insight into how you made it happen. Thanks again.

if you don't have the capital funds -- after paying for basic equipment and marketing

--set aside to support you, your wife, your child <I>and</I> your business and pay

your existing bills for at least six months: DON"T DO THIS YET!<P> There is an old

Irish saying that W.B Yeats used in one of his poems: "In dreams begin

responsibilities." Starting your own business is a lot of work, so is having your first

child. If starting your own photography business is really something you want to do,

start saving your money. also be aware that a lot of the photography business is the

business end and that maybe 10-20% of your time will be spent actually making

photographs, the rest will be spent marketing & administering your business. Another

consideration is thinking about what kind of photography you want to do and also

what contacts do you already have who would be interested in buying that kind of

work.<P>My wife and I just had our first child and it is a tremendous amount of work

raising her, you are probably also feeling a lot of stress as your life is about to change

radically in ways you could never imagine and which I don't think I can really explain.

Ask yourself if what you are actually looking for is a way out from under all of the

stress, if you are looking for an escape. That feeling is perfectly normal, but maybe

now is not the best time to act on that particular dream. Start planning and saving

your money so that you can do this right. Starting a business is akin to giving birth

and then struggling to get it is only going to make things worse for you. You'll be

torn in two as to which to pay attention to. Your wife will also ned a lot of physical

and psychic assistant for the first few months, or maybe the first year or more (I

haven't gotten there yet.<P>My background for giving all of this advise; I have been a

successful commercial photographer, running my own studio for 19 years.

<i>

I'll let you in on something: when you say that you "could care less," about how much I make, I think you really mean to say that you "couldn't care less."

</i>

<p>

Oh, gee I've never heard that "correction" of that common expression a thousand times before. Thanks for clearing that up. Obviously you're some sort of genius.

<p>

Frankly, you just sound like a sad sack whining loser who's never going to make any money no matter what you try. And a big waste of everyone's time. If you're so unimaginative that you can't find a way to make it in the engineering field, you're pretty hopeless.

Mark: I thought this was one of the more interesting threads I'd read in some time. When it degenerates into sneering name-calling, then I think time is being wasted.

"Three months later, you telephone the advertising agency to ask why you haven�t

received your check. The story is that some young punk right out photo school has

approached the client with an offer to shoot his products at ten percent of what you

charge, �Just to get his foot in the door�. The client wants to schedule a meeting to

re-negotiate the price everyone agreed on, or he refuses to pay the bill. If you agree

to a 90% reduction in your fee, there won�t be enough money even to pay for the film

and processing. Meanwhile, the bank is on the other line...

"</I><P>And what does your paper work say? Did you get an advance so you at least

covered your expenses bfore you started shooting? Did you use adelivery memo that

states that if the work is acceoted and not rejected in a timely mannerthe work would

be considered acceptable? What is that? You didn't get a signed confirmation and

purchase order? Didn't use a delivery memo?.<P>

Listen Mike, despite what I wrote earlier. You need to recognize the power of your

dreams...and you are. I've read your other posts in this thread. You seem thoughtful,

intelligent & passionate. <P>Congratulations on the new addition to the family: you

will have a wonderful time if you don't fight the changes and you'll find energies and

joy you never dreamed of.

I agree. What I have a problem with, though, is people who post questions and then slam well-meaning people who answer. And if you look at my original replies, they are nothing but well-meaning.

 

I might not have read his second post before I wrote the first (so sue me) but I obviously did after I wrote the second. Yet he's twice now slammed me for it, and gone on about how pretentious I am for discussing a subject (his finances) that no few than five sentences in his original post are devoted to.

Sorry, it appears I've been accused of being presumptuous, not pretentious. I don't want to misquote anyone.

Commercial photographs are hand-made by a skilled craftsman, which makes them expensive. Thus, only large manufacturers can afford them. And thus, you have the situation where David is selling photography to Goliath.

 

There is only one General Motors and one Sears. And ten thousand little photographers practically willing to kill to get an assignment from them. These companies know this and fully take advantage of it. You don�t dictate the terms of the sale, they do.

 

Elliot Erwitt, in a television interview, alluded to photography as a business with a well-deserved reputation for �tacky people who do tacky things to each other�.

 

I have always suspected that the directors of every large corporation hold a closed-door meeting during which they vote for the executive who is the biggest schmuck and put him in charge of advertising.

 

For the last forty years, I have regularly had all sorts of outrageous tricks played upon me because they know (1) that any photographer can be instantaneously replaced by the next one in a long waiting line, (2) that I know that if I sue, they and the advertising agency will never use me for anything again (3) that the lawyers handling the suit will get 90% of the money collected, and (4) that the litigation won�t be resolved for years, and if I just play along I�ll probably get paid by then anyway.

 

The more of those ominous forms and punitive terms (Ellis mentioned) which I imposed over the years, the less work I was given. The new kids (my competition), like the punk in my example, are still too naive to have any forms.

 

General Electric used to send out checks quarterly for all bills incurred the previous quarter. The ad agency (who paid me) used to do the same. So I was regularly paid twelve to fourteen months after their job was delivered. Knowing that up front, I just built it into my quote.

 

At least with portraits and weddings you are dealing with individual private consumers who can be bullied into deposits, pre-payments and guarantees. Corporate executives just sneer and laugh at you, as you meekly stand there with your little paper of rules and terms in your hand!

 

Mike, I wish you a wonderful, deeply rewarding, life-long amateur hobby of photgraphy which gives you much pleasure.

Mike, you've gotten a lot of well-rounded advice, probably more than you can get from any other source. Let me just back up and say that photography has allowed me to balance out the doldrums of the daily engineering job by allowing me to something purely creative.

 

When I first went to engineering school, I had dreams of building things that were creative and innovative. Somewhere along the way, that got a bit sidetracked. Although I got accepted into a very prestigeous and elite program, and occasionally made some minor innovative contributions to it, after ten years, I was pretty well burned out. This was truly Super High Itensity Stuff. I was gone a LOT. Sometimes for months. The last two years, I was home only about 90 days total.

 

When I left that job, I had the chance to take over the family business. But with four kids in grade school, and very uncertain prospects of the business' future, I passed it by. My parents fully understood and were not dissapointed in my decision. Went to work for someone else and several years of running more Super High Instensity Stuff, always on the edge of going on my own as a consultant, always talking with those that had been there and done it. Nearly all I met who had had their own companies, some very successful and prestigeous, had run into the same thing I had; burnout, physical problems from the stress, divorces, ect.

 

I found I was much more interested in being with my family as they grew up and faced their problems than I was chasing the almighty buck and stoking my own ego. So, I throttled back and eased myself out of the Super High Intensity Stuff.

 

Still had that creative need apart form the job though. That's when photography came to the rescue. I operate my interest on shoe string, my equipment is old, some of it older than me (and I just turned 50), and I have to fight for the time to pursue it. I started out with a 35mm and grocery store processing. But I've developed a passion for it, work in Large Format from loading the film to mounting the print all myself, and passionatly want to produce work that rings a bell with someone, primarily me. If others like it, all the better, but not primarily necessary. I plod along at the day job which does get interesting at times because now I'm the guy that gets called in to figure things out when they go wrong. That way, I keep the bills paid and once in a while, bail one of the kids out when they incur unforseen events.

 

I'll never know if I could have succeeded at the family business. Doesn't bother me anymore. I don't give a flip about the engineering career any more. I still managed to accomplish many of the goals I had there although I never patented the super whammadyne thing-a-ma-bob nor built the mighty railroad through the jungle. But trying to photograph something at a level of artistry that's somewhere above a snapshot just intrigues the hell out of me and is just as challenging, in fact more so, than figuring out what caused the Great Blackout. That's what keeps me going.

 

One can succeed at professional photography and you've gotten advice here from some of the best who have. My advice is to make the jump now when you're young or forever hold your piece. For me, putting the job and the passion into their respective places has worked.

Ellis, congratulations on your first child, as well. Believe me, I've already prioritized in my own mind what will happen within the next year. My wife's and child's needs will come first, no question. I'm just trying to think of ways to strike a balance between my familial obligations and career aspirations. Most of the input on this thread will help.

 

Mark:

 

>>Oh, gee I've never heard that "correction" of that common expression a thousand times before. Thanks for clearing that up. Obviously you're some sort of genius.<<

 

Then maybe you can start taking the "correction" you've heard a thousand times before to mind while calling a stranger "unimaginative," "helpless," "sad sack whining loser," or supposing that your engineering buddies are "smarter" or "have more on the ball" than me, or mis-quoting someone. Any time you make such basic errors while questioning someone else's "smarts," you should expect to be called on it.

 

>>Frankly, you just sound like a sad sack whining loser who's never going to make any money no matter what you try. And a big waste of everyone's time.<<

 

Fascinating insight from someone who has made what, six posts on this thread now? You must have plenty of time to waste on a sad sack whining loser like me. Especially since you made two more posts after saying what a waste of time I am. Keep wasting away, bud. It's mildly entertaining.

 

By the way, in all seriousness, I did agree entirely when you wrote this:

 

>>It's easy to get trapped in a mindset that says you need to live a certain lifestyle. Corporate America wants you to believe this. The government wants you to believe this. (Go shopping at the mall and take a vacation to Disney World or the terrorists win!) It's what keeps us all on our little hamster wheels.<<

 

My in-laws live near Disneyland and buy into this kind of crap all the time. I agreed with most of what you said and wasn't trying to slam you personally when I clarified the fact that I'm not broke (which you still can't seem to grasp--"sad sack whining loser who's never going to make any money"), nor looking for sympathy. It's not my fault you took that post to be a personal slam and decided to cuss at me while questioning my attitude and "smarts." But anytime a stranger on the Internet wants to start something personal, I'll respond in kind.

Mike,

 

First, don't quit your day job. Photo assignments are down, and stock photography is very competitive. Work on some personal photo projects committing yourself to the art. Possibly you could get in on some local exhibits. Maybe work on a book. (Books are more marketing tools then income producers). Really, focus on a personal photographic project near home and view your day job as a means to an end.

 

Most importantly, I hope your new family will be a joy and source of much enjoyment.