alfonse_deluer Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I am an expert 35mm photographer who has just gotten into large format. I have a new Toyo CX with a Rodenstock 150mm lens. I got it set up and tried using it yesterday. I was able to get the image on the ground glass in focus but it was upside down and reversed. I turned the camera upside down and mounted it upside down on my tripod, but it didn't change anything. I am going nuts - I paid almost $1000 for this set up - I called the dealer and they refuse to take it back. This is unacceptable - any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_atherton2 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I sure hope you are joking.... (it's not April 1st is it?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael gordon httpwww Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Get a troller reflex viewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan n. Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 hello "expert 35mm photographer", take your 35mm camera, set the speed on B, open the back, push on the shutter relase button and look thru the lens... and tell us what do you see... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian_ellis3 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Dear Alphonse I've experienced the same problem myself so maybe I can help you. Actually this "upside down and backwards" thing is a common problem with large format cameras but unfortunately for you it seems to be more common with the Toyo CX than with most other brands. It's been discussed here many times. If you search the archives using the phrase "upside down and backwards" or "upside down and reversed" you should be able to find a solution. But if you can't then since you're an expert 35mm photographer I'd suggest that you try viewing the ground glass with your 35mm camera, i.e.point the the 35mm camera at the ground glass, focus, and look through the finder. That way everything will be right side up and not reversed and you should be all set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_white2 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Place the camera close to the ground. Then stand over the camera with your back to the subject. Next, bend way over till your head is between your legs. You can then see the image right side up. All the best large format photographers do it this way. They just make sure nobody is watching. I sure hope nobody gets mad at me for giving up the secret. PJW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jean-louis llech Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 rM esnoflA reuleD,<br> <br> Quite simple : just go and take photos in the southern hemisphere.<br> As far as I know, it appears that over there, the image is downside up.<br> v I've been using a 4x5" camera for several years, and I thought it was normal.. I'm sincerely upset !<br> JLL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfonse_deluer Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 I think you guys aren't being serious. Really this is very frustrating and I don't think Toyo should be selling cameras that as so mis-aligned as this. I have convinced my dealer to accept my CX for a return, and I realize that I have to spend some really money to get this large format stuff right. Should I get the Ebony SV-Ti or a Linhof Technikardan S? I already ordered the Schneider 110XL as everyone has spoken so highly of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j._b._j. Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Ahh, yes...the upside down and backwords problem. I once experienced this with my Crown Graphic 4x5 camera. It's one of those early models. Anyway I don't think they knew much about optics in the 1940's. My solution is very easy and one that I employ regularly, and is a slight modification of the solution proposed by Peter White. After you have set up your camera on a tripod, set up a small mirror on a separate tripod so that it reflects the ground glass image, next stand on a picnic table (I carry a picnic table in my LF camera box) and look between your legs while your back faces the mirror. works every time. Good luck, JBJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j._b._j. Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 By the way, you shouldn't experience any focussing problems with the Technikardan. I would highly recommend purchasing it. JBJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_white2 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I'm glad to read that you got the Schneider 110XL. I hear all the "experts" are using them these days. ;-) Actually, the reason we're not taking this seriously is precisely because you called yourself an expert. Any expert photographer would know that a lens projects a reversed image. Your 35mm camera has a pentaprism that then reverses that reversed image, making it easier to use the camera quickly. So just as your Toyo and Rodenstock give you a reversed image, so will any other view camera (large format or otherwise) and lens. So my advice would be to keep your Toyo and use it. After a while, the reversed image won't bother you at all. PJW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_briggs2 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Some of the other respondents thought you were joking, hence their humerous answers. The image orientation that you dislike results from basic optical principles and has nothing to do with a particular lens or brand of camera. The penta prism in your 35 mm camera converts the image created by the lens to the correctly oriented image that you see in the view finder. If you continue to dislike the image on the ground glass, a reflex (mirror) viewer will correct the up/down orientation. Reflex viewers are made for many brands of view camera, I think Toyo makes some -- I am not sure whether one is available for the Toyo CX. Most LF photographers come to at least accept the image orientation, and many prefer it because it allows them to compose more abstractly, viewing the image less influenced by their knowledge of what the subject is. I recommend trying to use your camera as is for awhile with a more open mind about the image orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardea Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 As an expert in most fields that I know very little about I recall reading that the image that's projected onto the retina is upside down and reversed. Somehow our mind corrects this illusion... (maybe it is not an illusion. Watching and rreading the news these days one can believe the world really is upside down and reversed)...Anyway your ophthamologist can fit you with a pair of glasses that invert and reverse the world view. After fooling your brain for awhile it, not you? catches on to the trick of the glasses and your brain flips the images again and you see the world right side up again (only through the glases. Take the glasses of and everything is upside down and reversed again. Then look at the image in the groundglass it will be rightside up (true story...Remember I said I was an expert) Gee that sounds like a good idea..I've convinced myself. On second thought Purchase a Arca-Swiss 4x5 F metric with M orbix and send to me for extensive testing. On a side note I have to invert all my images I receive from the Southern latitudes, so maybe you have a camera that was originally sold in Australia (sorry mates). If all else fails do a Google search on "The Flat Earth Society" Good Luck...Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann_m Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 My goodness this is peculiar indeed seeing that the image as viewed on the GG is in fact upside down but is not reversed....... Reverse image being a characteristic of mirrors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_prior Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Just send me your Toyo. I'll fix it for you. You might as well send the lens too. I can fix it too. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan n. Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 We are very serious... in fact, nothing wrong with your camera, may be it was build based on the principle of "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" (Betty Edwards). According to it students are required to draw the subject upside down, as mentionned by Michael... to improve composition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamar_larsen Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Again all view and large format cameras are this way. Use your camera. I get so preoccupied with what I'm doing I don't notice it after a while. LaMar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_white2 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Ann M , oct 22, 2003; 04:38 p.m. My goodness this is peculiar indeed seeing that the image as viewed on the GG is in fact upside down but is not reversed....... Reverse image being a characteristic of mirrors... Oh oh! I'd better get my Wisner fixed! PJW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann_m Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Rats!!....... Does this mean that both my 4x5 & my 7x11 are broken???? I had assumed that because if one puts a body of text upside down in front of the lens it appears as normal and therefore there is no reversal only a 180 degree rotation ..... If there was a 'reversal' wouldn't the text appear like Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks? Someone please enlighten me!! I don't wish to be the source of 'bad science'...... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_eastman Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I too had this problem so I had an optometrist design glasses that inverted everything. I wear these constantly and now my brain has adapted.(I can't drive or play sports though.) So now when I use my crown I just have to remove my glasses. In addition to the 110xl you may want to get sinar zoom roll back I have seen these on ebay for as little as $5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardea Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Hi Ann..I don't believe a "mirror " image is the same as a reversed image. If one hold an image or text upright and facing the mirror the mirror neither turns it upside down or reverses it. The text that you will see in the mirror is backwards not reversed. Repectfully, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann_m Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Hmmmmm... I guess a brilliant career in optics isn't on the horizon for me. Alfonse, sorry for the confusion...... Robert what a coincidence I can't drive or play sports either!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allen_whittier Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Alfonse, At the risk of being the brunt of someone's joke; All the kidding around is due to the number of times these line gets used as a joke here in the forum. It's actually a commonly asked question from a novice who walks up and looks at an LF image for the first time. The thing is, most people that get a camera have already done some reading up on the subject and know the image is upside down. Every LF camera of everyone on the forum produces a rotated image, unless a mirror is used to flip it. Your camera is fine. Go out and enjoy it. You'll get used to the rotated image in no time. If this was a joke; May your lenses be the feeding ground of fungus and dust be a part of your every image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_white2 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Ann, If you removed the bellows and could view the image on the ground glass from the front, or just slipped a sheet of paper in there, it would be upside down, but it wouldn't be reversed left to right, if you held your head upright. In other words, what you see on the left edge of the image would be the same as what you would see if you simply turned around and looked at the subject. But when we're using our "defective" Wisners and other view cameras (sorry Ron, just kidding) we're looking at the image from behind the ground glass. So it's reversed vertically as well as horizontally. Essentially, it's been rotated 180 degrees. Everything at the bottom of the subject is projected to the top of the film, the left of the subject is projected to the right on the film, etc., when viewed from behind. What's interesting is that when you move from behind the ground glass to in front, you are rotating your head 180 degrees around a vertical axis. That's why the left/right orientation of the image changes, but the up/down doesn't. If you were instead to rotate your head 180 degrees around a side to side horizontal axis, in other words moving your head from upright and behind the ground glass to upside down in front of the ground glass, the opposite would occur. You would see the image right side up and reversed left to right. PJW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann_m Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Oh Peter... You have my head spinning.... however, you actually make sense! I just wanted to add that everything I know about large format photography I learned right here on Photo.net! Cheers Annie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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