faisal_maqbool

Bump !

Hello Folks, My continuous complain with the digital stitching has brought me look for a dedicated 6x17 panoramic system. I am inclining in the favor of a good and clean Fuji GX617 system if it falls within my budget range at a fair and reasonable amount. I am mainly looking for a 90mm (with the CF) and a 180mm lens to go with the kit and of course other accessories. Condition is important to me. If you have one and care for this poor panorama loving soul, please reveal your arsenal http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif Faisal` .

Paul, cheers for getting back. I guess I was not thorough and clear enough when I mentioned the 70-200mm lens. By that I meant that it's a range I am more comfortable to work with when working on panos. As such, I would almost always stay under 135mm for my work, most of which lies somewhere between 50/60mm to 100mm, so I think according to our discussion above, a 120/150mm or 180mm lens should suffice as a start and I can add another one later based on the experience. Guess that's a bit more on the "useable" side as you mentioned :D I had already read details about the Nikkor M300/9 earlier but I am happy you happened to land here and we got to discuss this, otherwise I would have severely disappointed in the FoV of a 300 lens, as I have seriously been thinking of going with that cheap DIY 6x24 camera that I linked in a previous post and the Nikkor 300 lens. The cones for the lenses for a Fotoman surprisingly are outrageously costly and while I understand that the cost of aluminium and CNC machining time is involved (I read that from a very old post of yours :)), it still is very expensive for an amateur here in Pakistan. But that said, the advantages of a proper VF, helical focusing and ground glass keep me going back and having second thoughts about working out some means for getting a proper Fotoman camera with all these accessories and be done with the task. The big question is how :D With your knowledge and experience on the subject, I expect more thorough discussions with you before I finally decide something and perhaps with your help we might score a good used Fotoman 624 setup from the last decade. If that's not a possibility eventually, I would like to negotiate with the good folks at Fotoman China to somehow work out a special solution for me :D don't know if it's possible or not but I could promise them some of my best work (using their camera) to return the favor if that's what they want. Look forward to hear more from you in detail. Thanks.

It's shocking to learn that this hugely popular photography forum and website didn't have any formatting and reply with quote options until 2017. It's good to see the slick interface especially with the dark theme I am using with Chrome. It's not recognizing the space between the paragraphs though and the whole thing becomes a massive single behemoth, cumbersome to read. Not sure if it's a bug or something.

I realized I can now reply with quotes so here I am again, apologies for any inconvenience. Hello Paul. Thanks for chiming in. Having read almost all the old threads from the last decade about this topic, I actually had your name in mind when I originated this discussion, hoping to have you on board. The point you raised about the FL selection, I had already kind of thought about it but wasn't entirely sure until I landed at a few discussions from google search where some folks have had varying opinions. What a wonderful photo you shared to illustrate the point. The concept of the vertical dimension is clear to me, it actually determines how much in or out of a scene you are moving to with a specific focal length and the width will be adjusted accordingly. That's exactly how I wanted to see the whole FL selection scenario as it allows me to see whether or not that tip (peak) of the mountain would be included in the picture while still retaining the treeline in the foreground and at the same time also avoiding to move too out of the scene. From my experience, my pano work mostly sees me using the 70-200mm lens (digital FF) as this range gives me a suitable FoV for my compositional goals. Still, since I have no opportunity of handling or seeing through this format using any of the FL's and there won't be any chance of returning or replacing the very expensive cone(s) and the lens(es), it's very important to estimate it right in the very first attempt. To that end, I would really appreciate if you could share with me more of your work using this camera and with different lenses, especially the longer ones. I will have a good idea looking at them about the kind of FL I need with this format. 6x17 is fairly common in comparison but there are actually very few pictures online taken on a 6x24 format, let alone any good ones. Secondly, since you folks shut down the Fotoman US back in 2009 and later a company emerged as Fotoman China, I had to ask you this, is this other Fotoman equally good and reliable mainly in terms of quality control and everything ? Any idea ? Any links/experience with these guys ? I see there are some Chinese guys selling Fotoman cameras on ebay for much less than the amount the Fotoman guys quoted me. There might be copies circulating in the market. Can I trust the product from them ? I absolutely can't afford the package at the current asking price, so I was wondering if you know someone in the US or elsewhere who might have a nice used Fotoman 624 setup from good olden times and would want to part with it for a reasonable amount. Definitely interested to know. It's my dream and goal to extensively cover and document the Himalaya, Karakuram and Hindukush mountain ranges of Pakistan with highly detailed panoramic imagery and such a setup could prove to be invaluable in my efforts. I sure can kind of do that with a digital camera but it's not the same, very time consuming and fatiguing. Could you help me on that in any capacity ? Thanks again and warm regards. Faisal` .

Hello Paul. Thanks for chiming in. Having read almost all the old threads from the last decade about this topic, I actually had your name in mind when I originated this discussion, hoping to have you on board. The point you raised about the FL selection, I had already kind of thought about it but wasn't entirely sure until I landed at a few discussions from google search where some folks have had varying opinions. What a wonderful photo you shared to illustrate the point. The concept of the vertical dimension is clear to me, it actually determines how much in or out of a scene you are moving to with a specific focal length and the width will be adjusted accordingly. That's exactly how I wanted to see the whole FL selection scenario as it allows me to see whether or not that tip (peak) of the mountain would be included in the picture while still retaining the treeline in the foreground and at the same time also avoiding to move too out of the scene. From my experience, my pano work mostly sees me using the 70-200mm lens (digital FF) as this range gives me a suitable FoV for my compositional goals. Still, since I have no opportunity of handling or seeing through this format using any of the FL's and there won't be any chance of returning or replacing the very expensive cone(s) and the lens(es), it's very important to estimate it right in the very first attempt. To that end, I would really appreciate if you could share with me more of your work using this camera and with different lenses, especially the longer ones. I will have a good idea looking at them about the kind of FL I need with this format. 6x17 is fairly common in comparison but there are actually very few pictures online taken on a 6x24 format, let alone any good ones. Secondly, since you folks shut down the Fotoman US back in 2009 and later a company emerged as Fotoman China, I had to ask you this, is this other Fotoman equally good and reliable mainly in terms of quality control and everything ? Any idea ? Any links/experience with these guys ? I see there are some Chinese guys selling Fotoman cameras on ebay for much less than the amount the Fotoman guys quoted me. There might be copies circulating in the market. Can I trust the product from them ? I absolutely can't afford the package at the current asking price, so I was wondering if you know someone in the US or elsewhere who might have a nice used Fotoman 624 setup from good olden times and would want to part with it for a reasonable amount. Definitely interested to know. It's my dream and goal to extensively cover and document the Himalaya, Karakuram and Hindukush mountain ranges of Pakistan with highly detailed panoramic imagery and such a setup could prove to be invaluable in my efforts. I sure can kind of do that with a digital camera but it's not the same, very time consuming and fatiguing. Could you help me on that in any capacity ? Thanks again and warm regards. Faisal` .

Thanks for your reply ondebanks. You're right, the description is severely lacking and the explanation of the project could be much better. My main intention is to have a decent 6x24 camera just for the distant mountain landscapes, I think I would hardly get into pain of using it for anything other than that, such as streets or the likes. More well-known branded cameras are outrageously expensive and thus totally out of my reach. Stil, I would want something that's decent in use and can focus reasonably well. Just a few weeks back I was in contact with Fotoman China and they quoted prices for their camera, ground glass, helical focus mount, viewfinder, lens cones etc. and the whole setup was around $4000 or something. I was wondering if it would be possible to use the ground glass and the helical focus mount from Fotoman with this camera. That mount itself was around $320 though ! I am confused. Can there be a large format with a 6x24 back solution to this, any idea ?

<p>Hello again folks,<br /><br />So, I happened to land on something that I thought would be worth sharing and asking here. During my on-going research on the subject, I came across this kickstarter campaign from Hong Kong. <br /><br /><a href="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wingsiu/617-film-diy-camera-challenges-80megapixels-equiva/description" target="_blank">https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wingsiu/617-film-diy-camera-challenges-80megapixels-equiva/description</a><br /><br />This guy has made a concept DIY 617 film camera using simple materials and the sample images look acceptable enough, other than of course the vignetting on the wide lens images. I have tried to interact with this guy on facebook and from what I understood from the communication is that the lens boards will be made according to copal # and flange focal distance and for focusing, a see-through paper is said to be included which will serve as a makeshift ground glass (I am not very sure of this myself). There will also be a focus adjustment set used to change the distance of the lens from the film. The cost of everything seems reasonable and he is willing to make me a similar 624 as well for not much more than the 617. But before making a decision and jumping onto this, I thought I would ask the experts and pros here to kindly take some time and have a look at the page and advise me what I should or shouldn't do or avoid to get everything right in this case.<br /><br />I have questions such as if there's no viewfinder, how is one supposed to see and compose a scene ? Can a viewfinder from a company like Fotoman be used with this camera for a specific lens ? Fotoman gave a quote earlier for the viewfinder for $150. <br /><br />Focusing too has got me confused and I am afraid I couldn't fully understand how it works so I want to learn more. If you can't see through the lens, how are you supposed to focus on the scene ? In your opinion, can the Fotoman Helical Focuser (very expensive around $320) and ground glass ($100) be used on this camera ? Fotoman also has a rangefinder ($180), how can that help on this camera (if it can) ?<br /><br />How long a lens can be used on a 624 version of this camera (300mm/400mm) ? The guy said any large format lens with big enough image circle for 624 would work as long as the flange distance is correctly adjusted during assemble. Any pointers to check ?<br /><br />Any other suggestions/advice/details that I am missing ?<br /><br />Thanks.</p>

<p>Giovanni,</p> <p>Saying that C-41 development has completely gone out of business from Pakistan would be incorrect. Yes, it IS available if you look hard but it's a rare phenomenon now and labs have completely converted over to digital for the fear of getting out of the market. Digital is the norm now and if you walk into a lab with a can of film in hand, you would be frowned upon and perceived as someone who has not yet come to terms with the power of the mighty "DSLRs" :D</p> <p>Even if I score a lab locally to get my film developed, they will do it halfheartedly and will take a lot of time so I thought I should not depend on someone else for this and should try to learn the process myself. Think it's a good idea after all and I believe I will get an idea too if MF film is for me or not. If I finally decide to carry on after a few months and as the film volume increases, I can look into getting a Jobo Processor for myself. What would be a fair price to pay for a used one in a good condition ? At ebay, the prices are often wrongly inflated and I want to have an idea of how much should or shouldn't pay.<br> <br /> Yes, 624 is 3 exposures per 120 roll.<br> <br /> Could you please point me to a good resource for looking and understanding the projection process for slides ? As I remember one of my uncle used to do something like that when I was still a child and he returned from England after his degree, I recall I was so fascinated about it, I got hooked up but then things gradually started to move towards the so-called digital revolution. If reasonably possible, I would love to have the setup at home.</p> <p>About the scanning, I think I won't be able to invest in a scanner right away. In near future maybe but I will first try to spend some time with an MF camera (other than a panoramic) and see how everything goes. That's because once the equipment is purchased and imported here, there's no chance of returns or resells or anything which means I must only buy something that I plan to keep for life, so it's kinda life-time affair :D</p> <p>I am reading and lurking over these forums for years silently and believe me that by now I almost remember everything by heart, I keep looking and learning though, albeit without practice.</p> <p>6x17 is plenty wide and I originally started my search looking for a Fuji GX617 but having seen almost each and every 617 image available online, I think I like the 624 format better. It's just that on seeing each one of those images my mind starts visually extending the image or cropping it for more width. I know you could always crop a 617 image to get that aspect ration but still. To be honest with you though, I am still questioning my choice because of so much overhead involved in terms of cost and availability. a Lot of folks on other forums have advised me to stay with digital and try better techniques for pano stitching. I know that's overly fatiguing and cumbersome in most cases for me when the scene and clouds and light are changing but going into the panoramic film format is not a small commitment either, one which my heart is fully set on but my minds totally contradicts that mainly because of the cost involved. Let's see.</p> <p>By the way, this is what I received from Fotoman China earlier:</p> <p>"<br> Dear Faisal</p> <p>Thank you for your reply.</p> <p>The price as follows:</p> <p>Fotoman 624 camera body: US $1500<br> Optical viewfinder: US $150<br> 624 Ground glass: US $105<br> Rangefinder: US $180<br> Cone for Schneider or Rodestock 180mm lens: US $520<br> 180mm helical focus mount-LT: US $320<br> Cone for Nikkor M 300/9.0 lens: US $1120<br> 300mm helical focus mount-LT: US $320<br> Cone for Fujinon 300/8.5 C lens: US $1050<br> 300mm helical focus mount-LT: US $320</p> <p>The cone for 300mm lens is not available, sorry for the inconvenience. If you would like, we can make for you especially after Chinese Festival . it will cost there weeks, the vacation is not included.</p> <p>About the price, We would like to offer you the biggest discount-15% discount, if you would like to offer a picture which you shot by Fotoman 624 camera in future. we will be appreciated it.</p> <p>As you know, Chinese New Year is coming, we will left office on 21st Jan, if we can not reply you in time, please understanding.<br> Any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us."</p> <p>Thanks,<br> Faisal` .</p>

<p>Giovanni,</p> <p>I have seen lots of pictures of the 617 format but very few from 624. Your pictures are very nice. For all the complexity, availability and cost issues though, I am questioning my own thoughts about whether or not jumping into this whole 624 thing. It's at least a 3-4 step process and at every step I will be importing or exporting something into and out of the country. There's also a huge ongoing cost involved and the greatest problem is that of the scanning. I have no personal experience with this but from the online research I have only come to know that Epson flatbed scanners are not great for any serious detailed work. Have you ever tried to use your digital camera to scan film ? People are doing that now and while I admit that Epson would at least be better than these, this is something that can be done with relative ease at home with already available equipment and low cost. </p> <p>About developing, I planned to do it on my own at home and am in the process of gathering info to setup a small darkroom kind of thing here by importing the required stuff. Am not sure if I can afford Jobo at the moment but I have definitely read about its usefulness. What kind of a price point must I be looking at if I plan to go for a good used Jobo processor at a later date ? My biggest worry in that case would be the customs in my country which is absolutely pathetic to deal with and they will add at least 500% extra duty on top of everything. </p> <p>Thanks for replying.</p>

<p>Mag, Schneider 300mm f/5.6 Apo-Symmar-L has an image circle of 430mm @ f22 according the data online whereas M-Nikkor 300mm f9 and Fujinon 300mm F8.5C both of which are mentioned on the Fotoman 624 page as compatible lenses with this camera have much smaller image circles than Schneider at 325mm and 380mm respectively. I just googled that. Please elaborate what I am missing here ?</p>

<p>This is my first ever post here and it's going to be a long one. Having been lurking around here for years, mostly directed from google searches for all sorts of photographic help but never posted before. Need help from the experienced members here. Sorry if this has already been asked but I couldn't find any authentic and detailed information on the subject anywhere especially for the film noobs like me. I am a landscape photographer here in Pakistan and over the years my focus and interest has inclined towards panoramic landscape photography. Been doing panoramas for at least last 8-9 years but I find the whole digital pano making process very frustrating, fatiguing and disappointing in the end. I have made some very good panoramas with my Nikon D700 but shooting a decent multi-row pano is a hit-and-miss affair and some details always get missed out and you only get to know about it when you return home from that perilous mountain expedition. I have tried it handheld and on a steady Gitzo tripod but it's always a chance game, plus, if the light is changing, the whole thing gets even more complicated and error-prone.<br> For some time now, I have been thinking of getting myself a dedicated film panorama camera and after some online research, I have finalized going with the 6x24 format since after having seen a lot of pictures online (there aren't a lot of 624 pictures online btw), this is the format that suits my mental vision well. But before actually jumping in and spending thousands of dollars blindly, I need some solid advice on the pros and cons of this decision. I ask that because in my country there's no availability and information on any LF or MF cameras, lenses, films, labs (developing/scanning etc.) so each and everything will have to be imported and it will be a nightmare for me in terms of cost and logistics so the margin of error is zero here and there's zero possibility of returns. Plus, Ebay/Paypal don't operate here as well. Developing, I plan to do on my own, will look into what stuff I need to get, but scanning is something I am still totally clueless about. I need the absolute best resolution out of those long film strips but can't afford those outrageously expensive Imacon scanners. I heard Epson scanners wouldn't be able to yield the very best for printing large.<br> Folks here who have used a Fotoman 624 camera, could you please shed some light on this situation ? Is this decision really worth it or can the digital process be improved to the point of perfect consistency and accuracy ? I reckon there are dedicated panorama rigs which might improve one's accuracy but those seem to very heavy and cumbersome. On the other hand, the complications of using a film camera, the cost involved, availability, import etc. of film also seems daunting.<br> I asked Fotoman China (http://www.fotoman.cc) for a quote on email and they replied to me asking which of the lenses I would be needing exactly. Considering the fact that I love taking normal to long distance panoramas with my D700 with focal lengths ranging from 50mm to 100mm and sometimes 135mm, I am wondering which lenses would be most suitable for my style of panoramic shooting on 624 format. I never go for very wide angle panoramas like 24mm. My subjects are mostly distant landscapes and I try to avoid any foreground distractions from getting into the frame as much as possible. From internet reading and researching, I am getting inclined towards two lenses, a 300mm and a 180mm. Some of my work can be seen at my flickr profile ( ) to get an idea of what kind of field of view I like for my panoramas. I might not have any 624 dimension pano on my profile but you will get the idea. Will 300mm be too long ? Should I consider 150mm and 180mm only ? I am trying to get a comparison with my 135 format field of view. But whichever focal lengths I finally choose, I want the absolute best in terms of resolution, sharpness, contrast, tonality etc.<br> I have read that focusing can be done via a helical mount or a ground glass, both of which are new for me and since I cannot get my hands on either of them to practice, I will have to learn about them from reading and watching over the internet. How to accurately focus between the shots ? I don't want to come back only to find that I missed focus on every shot. Is a Fotoman Rangefinder also available for this purpose ? How good is that ?<br> What other accessories would I be needing ? No real LF movements but I read it has something called a shift adapter. If not for extending the DoF, what is a shift movement used for on a panoramic camera ?<br> Are these Chinese Fotoman cameras on Ebay and elsewhere original Fotoman ? Went through a few ads and prices are in the range of $750-800. There's one from Canada asking $2000! Not sure what's the difference. All say Fotoman 624. Reading a number of old threads here mostly from 2009 and 2011, I came to know that Fotoman had closed its business in the USA. There were probably some representatives from Fotoman on this forum and I saw some detailed replies from them. If they are still here and read this, I would appreciate if you too chime in and guide me through all this.<br> There's a table of lenses on their website (http://www.fotoman.cc/showPro.asp?id=34) that can be mounted on this camera and they say that if you want to have some other lenses other than these then the flange focal distances should be between 97mm and 296mm. And there's something called "Copal #" which I don't know about and I think all lenses in this table are Copal #0 & 1 (not sure). What if I want to mount a Copal #3 lens on this camera such as a Schneider 300mm f/5.6 Apo-Symmar L (read it's very good but bulky) ? Is this doable ?<br> Sorry for such a long essay, tried to be as much detailed as possible to explain my situation. I know there are points in my post that belong in a separate thread but they are directly related to my queries, plus I don't have any other way of knowing and clearing my confusions up. Want to avoid any potential pitfalls. I might have missed some important details that I don't have an idea about but would definitely want to get enlightened on.<br> Thanks,<br />Faisal` .</p>