The photo.net guide to China

The books that Philip mentioned as background reading are good, but a couple of others I would recommend are "Red China Blues" and "Jan Wong's China". Both are by Jan Wong, a columnist with the Globe and Mail in Canada. She spent 12 years in China both as a student and as a foreign correspondent and gives excellent insight to a country that is still very inaccessible to Westerners.

While Chinese civilization may or may not be the oldest in the world, it is definitely much older than 2500 years. Confucius lived from 551 BC to 479 BC. This alone dates Chinese civilization to older than 2500 years. Given the fact that at the time of Confucius, a mature writing, economic and political system has already been established, this certainly points to the fact that the civilization is much older. Confucius also wrote volumes of books on Chinese history, telling of wars and dynasties which predated himself. All this, and I have yet to go into the archaeological evidence.

I agree fully with Ma on his comments. Dating China's history should be left to the experts. Let's not falling into the stereotype of "China bashing" by ascribing everything negatively to the Chinese government. Not many people like the Communist ideology but that doesn't mean whatever the public policy the government has done so far was detrimental to the citizens. Many in the West would like to see a democratic and modern China. However, we also have to accept the total package when that day comes (I happen to believe it will come), and that may mean a powerful and very assertive China. Through mutual understanding, we all can get along.

I think the article rather underemphasises how superior food in almost any region China is, and how much more varied, as compared to the usually rather crude offerings of even the best Chinese restaurants in the U.S.

Mr. Ma, Mr. Cheng. I could not agree more fully with you.

China bashing is a knee-jerk phenomenon that is much too commonplace.

I would like to only make a simple point that the efforts to establish how old Chinese civilisation is, are of political importance to the Beijing government.

It is not yet clear whether China is the oldest civilisation or whether it is only about as old as Japan and India, two other very old civilizations which are about 2500-4500 years old.

Of course, every Chinese would feel very proud if his or her civilisation were to be declared the oldest, but my point is that not only is the truth not clear yet, but also that efforts to establish it are getting pushed in a particular direction.

(I have suitably edited this and the previous comment based on your thoughtful input.)

Mani,

As an American citzen who is bilingual, I have had the benefit of reading many Chinese source research materials without the need to go through translation and hence the editorials done by the translators. I personally do not believe what contemporary Chinese researchers' publications are to serve as mouth pieces for the Communist government. Case in point, it's been long accepted that China was the first country to use paper currencies. There was a recent article published in China suggested the first paper money was invented by Chinese Jews in the 12th century. In the research paper the author also went into depth to discuss the Jewish migration into China, its time phases and many of the influences these Chinese Jews had done to the Chinese society through many dynasties. If social studies are solely for the advocacy of government's nationalist agenda, this type of publication would have been banned. One needs to understand rigid ideological controls are fading away at rapid speed. China may have a long way to go and only the Chinese themselves can decide their own path. We should not try to influence them. The democracies in Korea, Taiwan and many other places were achieved by the respective people, not by American intervention. Democracy simply cannot be transplanted. Try to lecture others of the so called "American values," will eventually backfire on us. regards,

Yui

What a cold review! And how different my own reaction. How could you not mention the excitement, color and beauty of China and also not comment on the ingenuity of the Chinese people both past and present and the ability to cope with change and make-do with what is available.

Another photographer view China and the Chinese with colored eyes. This impertinence guy seems want to show his or her pride and prejudice to China. As a Chinese citizen, I will forgive his or her emptiness to the Chinese history and culture.

The real deal

I just wanted to let people know, it is not wise to ship any of your purchases home from China. I purchased several replica terracotta warriors from the museum in Xi'an. The shipping cost, which ended up being more than the purchase, was supposed to be covered to the final destination city of Detroit, MI. However, when the shipment made landfall in California, I was invoiced additional charges for transfers and customs brokers. The freight should have been forwarded in bond to the final destination port, with all fees except for destination and duty fees (which is not applicable to fine art). Trying to argue the point after the fact with the responsible party in China is a losing proposition.

I must agree with M. Huber about this being a "cold review", and with Xin Chen (both Dec. 13,2000) who aptly describes this feature as "emptiness to Chinese history and culture". The author displays a narrow vision and experience of China.

I, too, went to China and had a totally different experience of the people and culture, but then I spent most of my time out of the cities. It is in the countryside where I felt graced by the presence, warmth and honesty of the villagers, the scenery, the art of living.

I learned that "poverty" is a relative term. I spent too little time, on these trips, with people who showed me a "rich" life with a sense of family, of purpose, and of place on this planet - those things that so many of "we" Westerners go to therapy to find. I ask - who really lives in poverty, and I say - I want what they have.

I would like to share with you my experience of Southern China: http://www.adamphoto.com/China1.htm.

Thanks! Adrienne Adam

In terms of civilization, I think Japan is not really in the same league as China or India. If I remember correctly, Japanese civilization is less than 2000 years. Chinese civilization probably is not the oldest civilization (maybe Egypt?) but it certainly is the oldest continuous civilization.

Yellow Mountains

You can see my China pages at: http://pinimage.com/China/China1.html It was shot on my three weeks trip to Eastern China Oct. 2000 The most Beautiful place in China is: The Yellow Mountains !

Pini Vollach

I've just read /china and /japan, and as usual, Mr Greespun talks as if he knows everything. He talks as if he has lived in both countries all his life.

Every single time I read a piece by Greenspun, either here on photo.net or on arsdigita (I'm a software engineer), I feel like I'm wasting my time. He likes to TEACH, but most of what he has to say is simply his OPINIONS, not FACTS. Man ... what a waste of time ... I'm never reading another article he writes.

I am disappointed by this article's overall condescending tone towards China. This is not surprising given all the coverage about China in main stream media is negative. To the average american China is still a red country suffering under the iron rule of communism. So it is not easy for an american travelling to china to keep an open mind. At least philip mentioned that China's GDP is growing fast and internet is taking root in China fast. I am a chinese software engineer and I do enjoy reading philip's book about building on line community.

I think we should respect Phillip's opinion of his visit to China as a subjective essay and not a factual one, and also be aware of China's constant critical views towards the west, while at the same time attempting to adapt the benefits of western culture at break-neck pace.

China exists as three seperate entities much like the post Stalin Soviet Empire; People/current culture, past culture, and governing dictatorship. Observers out-side the culture often exagerate the differences while those who grow up with it are subject to living some what in denial. As western observer's we can only judge China by the current experience and not by what happened 2,000 years ago or by the friendly intentions of the Chinese populace.

I left some comments here a few days ago thought I could express my thought a little better. Here it goes.

As several others already pointed out this essay presents a very narrow view of China. However, it's not surprising given the kind of coverage China receives in the western media. It's just another case of someone with prejudice looking for something to confirm the prejudice. As someone who grew up in China, I know too well that many of the problems listed in this essay are true, and I agree (with what Scott Eaton said in his comments) that Mr. Greenspun is entitled to his opinion. After all in a democratic society anyone can have his/her opinion, regardless of whether the individual is well-informed - it's just a by-product we have to live with. Let's put this into perspective and note that Mr. Greenspun only spent a short period of time in Beijing. But nonetheless I am dissapointed by his narrow focus and "activist" approach to things. One example: coal pollutes more than most other energy sources. Does the author have to remind us readers about it ? I don't think so. Very often so-called "activists" in developed countries (with widely different and conflicting views) attack developing countries on issues such as labor, environment, abortion, religion (and the list goes on and on). Sure they can take an "uncompromising" position and demonstrate on a sunny Saturday afternoon, but to those in developing countries it may well be a matter of survival.

A friend of mine, an American who had never been to China until last year, made two bussiness trips to Shenzhen, China. He was quite impressed by the city. I reminded him that's one of the better managed cities and only about 20 years old, there are places that look decades behind (but then isn't that true with many countries).

Even with all the existing problems, today's China isn't the one in the 1970s, as anyone who lived through the changes can tell you.

Door and Screen in the Forbidden City

I've been living in Beijing for four years and thought that this article was pretty much dead on. Check out my home page for more pics of China. http://www.joebrockphotography.com

I agree that this article is incredibly short-sighted. For a more open minded and exciting look at China, see the numerous stories written on www.66cities.com , a new internet guide for China. The articles on this site generally feature China- unusual destinations, events, people and are very well written.

Greg's comment of December 16, 2000, includes a photo of the terra-cotta warriors of Xi'an. I wanted to mention that photographing those warriors is easier than (at least some) guidebooks make it sound: Fodor's "Exploring China", for one, says that photography is prohibited everywhere in the exihibit, whereas I found people taking pictures everywhere, and the nearby guards ignored them. Only one of the three large excavation pits even had signs that said "No photography", and those signs were only along two of the four walls. Also, the warriors in glass cases indoors can be easily photographed if you have a very wide lens (I used a 20mm) and simply stick the lens right up against the glass. You can then hold the camera steady for the five or ten seconds you'll need to get a decent exposure at a small aperture.

The photos are bland and fail to engage with China and its people, and this is reflected in the words of the photographer. A person's attitude to people and places, and correspondingly expressed values, are intrinsic to his or her approach as a photographer. This is a case in point.

1) You could take his advice on food and go through China eating only the most hygenic things. Inevitably, you'll only be eating at McDonald's and overly expensive hotel restaurants. Or you could try to be more adventurous and eat at the streetside food vendors and have some of the cheapest, most delicious food you'll find in the world. My favorite memories from the year that I was in China are mostly food-related, whether it was eating the freshest, most delicious peaches I've ever had in Xining during the month of August, sweating through some "mapo" tofu in Chengdu, eating spicy grilled lamb and potatoes in Lanzhou or eating grilled squid from a street vendor in Beijing. I was a bit reckless and I did bump into the occassional case of explosive diarrhea or heartburn, but it was always worth it.

2) While I do agree with others that this article is a bit condescending, I still find Mr. Greenspun's point of view understandable. Travelling in China for a non-Chinese looking person has a whole host of frustrations that someone of Chinese descent probably doesn't realize.

There's the "Hello!" phenomenom. Outside of the major cities, a non-Chinese face will cause EVERYONE who passes you by to yell "Hello!" at you and leer at you like a circus freak. Ask any white person who has spent more than a couple of days in the countryside and they probably still have a nervous tic when they hear the word "Hello."

There's also the hotel situations. Venture outside the safe terrority all explained by the Lonely Planet and you'll find it incredibly difficult to find a hotel that will accept foreigners.

Then there's the constant price discrimination. At first it's fun, but haggling for every little thing becomes a chore. It's frustrating always having to deal with paying 2-3 times what the locals pay. Admittedly, it's all pretty cheap when you work out the currency exchange, but it's nonetheless frustrating (especially when you're on a tight budget).

Travelling in China can be extremely frustrating and people with weaker wills can be worn down by it. But for every obstacle there was a reward. The people are on the whole extremely friendly, the sights are incredible, the food fantastic. It was a challenge but I wouldn't have had it any other way.

I just got back from my first visit to mainland China and I have to say I am somewhat disappointed.

Maybe my expectations of this great land were too high, but having travelled widely in Asia and all other continents, I expected more of a country with such a rich history.

The ugliness of the cities, the pollution and the general disregard for the beautiful environment was disappointing.

I am not talking of Beijing, Shanghai, but of Western Sichuan and Northern Yunnan, places like Chengdu, Kangding, Zhongdian etc.

A highlight was the gorgeous old town of Lijiang (justifiably a World Heritage site today), a photographers delight!

Duh. Don't go to China. Go to Taiwan. Rugged terrain. Mandarin speakers. Everyone speaks English to some degree (not great, but passable). The economy isn't confusing for a Westerner. You still get great Chinese culture and architecture, without the vaguely unsettling government presence. As a United States citizen, you just fly over and get a 14-day visa without filling anything out. They give you the stamp at the immigration line at the airport.

Getting a multiple-entry 60-day visa took me about a week's wait in San Francisco and I think it cost me $15 including mailing my passport back to me.

It's really hot in the summertime. I recommend going in the winter. I've visited twice during the winter months, and once during the spring months. It was quite nice during winter, but a bit warm in spring.

Tourism isn't going to be what you're there for. Take a tour and you'll see what I mean. Taiwan doesn't have any real tourist spots. You're there to see temples, rugged terrain, strange driving habits, and the full-on Asian Experience.

I have to strongly disagree with the earlier comment given by Philo Vivero. At least in terms of photography opportunity, China has so much more to offer as compared to Taiwan.

I would say the airline ticket was wasted.

i have been Beijing twice. I personally 100% agree with Mr.Greenspun opionion . I guess if the china could be efficient,clean, and free up to the American standard.There will be not that many people get all their time and energy studying TOFEL or GMAT or EILTS and bet their future on the plain ticket to the abroad. Sorry for my words , i am just speaking the truth.

I went to China last Summer after forty two years of absence. I have to agree with most of Mr. Greenspun's opinion. But, we have to remember we can not use our scale to buy their products. It has been less than twenty years since China opens up to the rest of the world. To their standards, they are progressing very fast, still behind ours; but again, how many European countries can measure up to our standards? I was a bit disappointed at first but after I laid down our standards, I found them not much different from other developing countries.

I have been to Beijing twice in the past year and the changes taking place are remarkable. Beijing is bustling with construction activity. The older neighborhoods or hutongs are fast disappearing. Office buildings and modern housing are rapidly taking their place. The approach of the 2008 Summer Olympics will likely accelerate this trend. Some photos from my trip can be found at World Images . Don

You cannot compare japan with either China or India. At the time of the Han dynasty in ~300BC, when the old chinese civilisation reaches its 1st peak (that was when the Silkroad to the west was 1st opened) Japan was still a babarian paradise. Written records only appear in Japan in the 8th century AD when Chinese writing was adopted, and this was during the time of powerful Tang dynasty.

Colin Mason had gave a rather comprehensive, fair and short, and almost accurate (well...westerner's account on Asia have never been 100% accurate. :p)account on China and the Asia at large on his "A Short History of Asia" available from www.macpress.com

i have some china travel photo on display here http://home.pacific.net.sg/~boochap

I agree with most of the comments before, especially after having read some of Mr. Greenspun's reports about other countries. I have the impression he is making trips only to confirm his prejudices and biased verdicts. Well, it cannot be like in the U.S. all over the world, and there are people in the world who find the American way of life not being the best one. Every country has its highlights and shortcomings. Be aware that people in other countries do not appreciate what you appreciate, and do not condemn what you condemn. Further, one should give up the opinion that one can fully grasp the wealth and variety of China's almost 6000 years old culture within a three week's trip. Yes, the meals are delicious, but you may get a heartburn and diarrhoea of it (it's just the other way round in the U.S.). Yes, the country is relatively safe, but several thousands of people are said to be executed every year (only the second statement is true in part for the U.S.). But also, the country changes with amazing speed. Therefore, be a little bit more lenient; perhaps then other people will be lenient to you.

Boochap & Hermann's show us an impersonal remark,I don't like Mr.Greenspun's colored eyes on China & Chinese.

I also like journey in my free time, I hadn't been to US before, but I have been to several countries in Europe: including France, Belgium,Germany,Austria,Luxembourg,Greece,Italy, Spain etc. All of those countries have something I don't like but I never emphasize those but the different culture and the scene. Every country include USA has it's shortcoming, but every country also has its different culture background and history.

In Paris, two professors talk about the feeling about this city, one from China but live and work in USA said: Before you went to Paris, you never knew what's art and culture. the other one is a native American, said: Our Americans have the modern cities. Which one you like, every one has his own choice. Like modern cities, go USA, Want to have a art journey, go Paris, it's Okay.

Of course China has much shortcomings compared with USA, but this is not the reason you or others can deride Chinese ant their country. it's unfair and also reflect he/she is not cultured.

If you like travel, use your eyes on the most interesting, In Paris' streets, you can find dog's excrement, but I still think this city is the most beautiful city.

Welcome to China, the people there is very hospitable.

Finally, forgive my bad english.

welcome to http://songbird2000.tripod.com to see my footprints in european countries.

This is a really unfortunate example of why Americans and especially American tourists have the stigma of being narrow minded, haughty, and simplistic. Greenspun's phobias of getting intimate with cultures, insistence of eating only in Hotels and McDonalds, and positively mundane pictures makes me wonder why he bothers to leave the country at all. I haven't been to China but I was lucky enough to go to Vietnam with my roommate who was born there, and as anyone who is well traveled will tell you, the quality of your experience and the quality of your photos depends largely on how open-minded you are.

I agree with the above poster, in that I think Greenspun seems to enjoy listening to himself "teaching", regardless of whether he has any understanding of the subject or not. Just click on the link at the top to read his article on "Street Photography" and watch the fertilizer fly:)

I spent 4 weeks in China last year, and experienced one of the most fascinating trips of my life. China had not been on my "Top 5" places to visit, but a good friend of mine moved to Shanghai the year before and I thought I would use the opportunity to visit my old friend and travel around the country. I was not disappointed.

The beautiful temples and palaces in Beijing were just as magnificent as I had hoped, and the signs of a city going through 100 years of change in only two decades was eye-opening. Shanghai was more modern than I could have imagined, not very different from Hong Kong. The colonial architecture lends a familiar air to a city that is foreign in every other way.

John and I flew to Xinjiang, and travelled the old silk road from Turfan to Kashgar and on to Tashkurgan on the Afghan/Pakistani border. The environment is breath taking. 7000m mountains, deserts that stretch as far as the eye can see, and friendly, curious people who are so different from the east that you feel like you are in a different country (they are Tajiks, not Han Chinese). In fact, until 70 years ago it was a different country. The hospitality of the people here surprised me. This was only 3 weeks after September 11th, and my country (Britain) was about to sent troops to fight their Muslim neigbours in Afghanistan yet people would stop to talk to me, ask me what I thought and want to engage me in discussion. I had been slightly apprehansive before going in light of events, but Xinjiang in fact became the highlight of my trip.

The Chinese government responded to September 11th by clamping down on ethnic minority areas and 10 dissidents were executed while I was there. When I travelled south to Guilin and along the River Li, my Han Chinese guide (John had returned to Shanghai by this point) asked me what I thought of the people there. When I replied that they had been friendly and hospitable she was extremely surprised, such is the propaganda pushed out by the government. 5 days of cycling my legs off following my guide along the river was fascinating. She told me about life in a region where 95% of the economy was agricultural and the average wage was around 10 kwai (USD 2) a day. Yet the men would sit in the middle of the village and gamble away a month or more's earnings in an afternoon. The contrast to Shanghai and Beijing could not be more dramatic.

China truely is a sleeping giant, I only hope that while the east coast cities embrace the 21st century, the rest of the country is not left in the 19th.

China is a fascinating place to visit and I would recommend it to anyone. You can see some of my pictures at:

http://www.fotango.com/cgi-bin/vpi.cgi?S_ID=124864&P_W=91348

Julian

I love Hermann's comment, it's very sincere. I am always assuming that when we travel with our camera, we are supposed to explore and to look for something new and interesting. More importantly, show respect to the others when there is difference. I will definately not complain it is too cold in Alaska nor too hot in Safari Africa. Our American Standards also do not always work. Philip seemed to be disappointed when he found out that it itsn't what he expected. For his next trip, I suggest him to visit Disneyland with a camera but no film. He should enjoy his wonderful world very much. My last 2 trips to China including Yellow Mountain, Yangtze river, and Le River in Guilin were wonderful. I have no complaints in going again for the third time.

It must be of cloudy days when the pictures were taken. China is certianly a poor country. But why many pictures look so gray. The latest pictures on ruins (see photo.net home) are turely outstanding and inspiring. The ruins that brought to China by Western countries were started by "Chinese not buying much Western goods". That resulted in the loss of many, many Chinese lives on that peaceful soil. To make the trade even, Britain decided to become the biggest drug grower/dealer ever to sell opium to China. US also took part in occupying a piece of most fertile land of China by taking advantage of the situation.

If one were to take pictures of 200 years ago or eariler, he would find China the most advanced and civilized place and fear less for his life than he would in today's NY city subway. 2000+ years of culture and deep rooted Confucious/respectful family value does make you a better being - photographer or not, MIT educated or not. Also, (back then) one would not find 12-lane freeway for cars using today's technology. However, I saw on TV that they are unearthing 4-lane (car size) highway between major cities in use dated back to Han dynasty.

If you travel to China, beware that the law there is very different. However, "standard and frequently applied punishment for most crimes is death" is not quite accurate. But punishment is harsh. On the other hand, I am sure you will be absolutely guarantied that people like OJ Simpson will not be taking picture next to you.

Let me also point out that the quote "The Cantonese will eat anything with four legs except the table." is very inappropriate to say.

I must say the photographs in Mr. Greenspun's so-called "Guide to China" tell us a lot more about the photographer himself than about China. Mr. Greenspun is certainly entitled to his opinions, but to pass them off as a guide to China is, in my view, irresponsible and inexcusable. As one old saying goes, the wise man knows his own limitations. Mr. Greenspun might be a smart man, but he is certainly no wise man. This sort of craps coming out of a seemingly well educated and well traveled individual is simply just beyond me.

To Mr. Scott Eaton:

As a western observer, why don't you reserve your judgement on China, and instead, try to experience China with an open mind, and with the basic understanding that a country is foremost about her people, her land, and least about her government? And why shouldn't your opinion of China be influenced by "the friendly intentions of the Chinese populace"?

Hi, I am a Chinese living in Taipei and feel like contributing some opinions here since people talk about China. There're lots of books about China, some published by Mainland China might be a little biased and the same are books from Taiwan. I'll like to recommend books of China by Dr.Ray Huang to anyone interested in China. His books were originally written in English and have been published in many other languages, which can be found in Amazon.com by searching "Ray Huang". His books open my eyes even I am a Chinese myself! The best way to shoot a photo of China that moves billions of Chinese would be to know a little about China first. :)

Maybe this article was writen a decade before "Travels with Samantha", in which the author enjoyed meeting with real people. I believe he didn't talk to any Chinese during his trip in China.

It is rather rediculous to say "Considering that the standard and frequently applied punishment for most crimes is death". The author was citing a standard of 40 or 60 years ago. A view of China over 5 years older is too old to mension.

Suppose I only spend a couple of weeks in New York, only saw riminals, drug dealers, and homeless people, then made the conclusion that United States is the most dangerous and terrible country in the world, and I only post photos of drug dealer, homeless and criminals on a popular website, I bet nobody will agree.

Yi

I have to say, after living and working in China for two years and travelling extensively during my holidays, neither the review nor the photos above come close to doing justice to this country.

I cannot believe that from the trip, one of the most interesting photos Mr. Greenspun has to post is of a van and a chair in the street, I am no photo expert - technically, I am a complete amateur, but I am pretty unimpressed with the photos above, given the huge wealth of subject matter on offer.

It's like this - if you want 5-star comfort, and things done the american way, GO TO AMERICA. if you want to experience a diverse, interesting and vibrant country (with a lifetime's worth of photography), stick your neck out a little and go to China! Mr. Greenspun, if you're ever here again (sounds unlikely), drop me a line and I'll give you some hints.

A pond and a building on Yang Ming Shan in Taiwan

I have to strongly disagree with the earlier comment given by Philo Vivero. At least in terms of photography opportunity, China has so much more to offer as compared to Taiwan.

-- Wee Keng Hor, December 15, 2001

I won't claim Taiwan is a better photographic opportunity. But if that's all you're concentrating on, you didn't read my post. I didn't say Taiwan was a better photo op than China, I said it's damn good, and the culture won't frighten a fragile westerner like Philip Greenspun (or myself). Notice I made some comments about laws, financial transactions, and English. But you soundly ignored that, didn't you?

If the above link doesn't work for you (say a few months after this post), try My Dot Net Domain and see if it works better for you. Not only that, but I have a Photo dot Net Account with a number of pictures from Taiwan, California, and New Zealand.

"Professor" wears no clothes in this HOWTO. As soon as I saw the silly comment about where and where-not to eat I knew this whole essay was going to be chock-a-block with haughty assertions formed out of minimal knowledge and experience.

Basically this article says nearly nothing of any use.

Hi ,

I first want to talk about the chinese culture. YEs it is old i heard often from elders it is around 4000 years history and i aint sure but it would actually be around that i think. IF i am wrong i am sorry but i also read a lot of books (not only asian writers but also written in many english or dutch books that it said the chinese history is really old) I believe when we start using jopstick. so called western country are still eating with their hand and a big knife. So i still do not understand how can someone wild on showing of their culture and making fun of other country i believe we should try to set the fear of differences aside and try open up and stop being stupid and start talking and communicate with each othe. I believe i have some stereotype idea about other country too i am not afraid to say it but atleat i would not make fun or try to make them believe they are less then they really are.

This review is way to short, the writer could go deeper . deeper then want you would see when u drive by with a tour bus. ofcourse it is smart to travle with tour leader but i think having someone really lives their to show you around would be really great. i think going all the way into center of the main china would be great with the mountains and river , (rememba to pack right for it)

At the end i want to say ( no matter if it is china tokio or america i believe the beauty with in is hard to put down in words so better try to see yourself and try to find out what it is really likes. (as chinese says. It is better to walk 10.000 miles of road then read 10.00o books. (I might got the translattion wrong :P forgive me my asian friends.)

China is certainly a beautiful place with a large amount of diversity. It can be a photographer's paradise, and the food is also very good.

I have recently been on a trip to the Silk Road. Apart from seeing important historical sites, some of which being very well preserved thanks to the dry desert climate, we also travelled through some splendid mountain ranges, pristine deserts, and local villages during harvest. It was a most interesting trip.

I think China has a lot of good that one can bring out, but it also comes with a lot of bad points. Often, it excels at frustrating its visitors. My 2 cents: thorough planning & preparation, and do try to see things in their (historical) context. One final note, in my trip, the best places to photograph are ones where we didn't stop over. Damn!

To anyone who is coming to China, I have just one word of advice. Skip out on all the tourist attractions. You can always pick up a photo book of China in your home country. If you really want your own photos, and not a bunch of clones, the best oportunities are right under your nose. Spend time in the villages, the small towns, and wander into the back streets. See the real people, watch the rich culture unfold before your eyes. Also If there are any other foreign photographers currently in China, feel free to send me an e-mail. We can swap stories or travel tips. We're a community, lets help each other out.

My wife and spent 3 weeks in Beijing, Xi'an, Shanghai, Chun Chin, on on the Yangtse and points in between. While the street thermometers read 40C, while it was 80F with the AC on, and my pregnant vegetarian wife could hardly keep down a thing our hosts prepared for her, these were minor obstacles. The biggest irritation was the ugly americans in our group that viewed the middle kingdom as a cheap, hot, dirty imitation of western culture. I think the chumps missed my china because they viewed it as a substandard first world.

Once I stepped across the street, and spent the night not following the man in the red hat it was amazing. I spent a couple nights in beijing with a crowd of people singing folk songs (I guess, they were in chinese) for each other on the corner. In xi'an, everyone hangs out on the grass medians at night, and I joined a couple hundred people line dancing to a cheap PA under an overpass. A few spoke english, and said they thought I was american (true), cause I didn't act uptight like a brit. I'm sure you could get tired of it if you tried, but it never failed to amaze me, and I liked having fun unmediated by technology, cleanliness or amenities.

Only when you are here, you have right to judge here. Welcome to Heze, Shandong, famous for Peony.

Hello,

It seems that most people are drawn to the metropolis. China has so much more sights to offer away from the busy streets and concrete jungles. As a child, i was fortunate enough to tour many parts of china with my dad, who sold medical instruments to the country. The mountains, the valleys, and the waters are all beautiful. Cities, to me, are the antithesis of what China should be about. Having grown up in Canada it's awkward to picture China, so endowed with natural wonders, as purely an industrious nation.

Of all of the bizarre guides to travel photography, my recommendations on China, Taiwan, and most of Asia are that the only accurate part of the following "...Don't eat fresh fruit or vegetables. Never touch salad. Don't drink the water. Don't eat in a restaurant where dinner costs less than a week's wages for a Chinese. The compensation for all of this? You can eat wonderfully well in the big cities..." is "don't drink the water." As far as getting around, its not particularly dificult, just not as fast and convenient as the west. Street photography is fairly easy if you park yourself in a particular place long enough to fade into the background.

Philo, have you ever travel in the real China before? Coming April will be my 4th time traveling to China since 1999.Our hiking group grows from 5 to 25 people so far from all different professional backgrounds. One thing for sure is we are a group who like traveling and photography. I guess we enjoy traveling in China because we don't have any specific political agenda like others. Otherwise, I think it will be another painful story. BTW, the province Taiwan has no comparison to China as far as photo ops's concern. As long as you don't only taking pictures inside the hotel lobby with your US passport on the nose.

re: the Taiwan vs. China controversy.

Let's lay the facts on the ground, shall we?

China went through the Cultural Revolution a few years back, where they systematically destroyed everything of historical or cultural significance, and then killed anyone who had any sense of culture or history (ie: the history teachers). They changed their writing system to eliminate any historical significance of the characters.

Taiwan has the largest museum of Chinese historical artifacts, and has thousands of Buddhist temples and millions of practicing Buddhist monks. It welcomes culturally-interesting groups, such as Fa Lun Gong whereas in China these groups get killed. Taiwan's writing system is the traditional Chinese character sets, with rich cultural and historical significance.

If you want to snap pictures of a hovel near a stream, go to China. If you want pictures representing thousands of years of history in a politically- and culturally-welcoming environment, with staggeringly beautiful tectonic landscape (read: tall, steep, green mountains) then give Taiwan a shot.

I'm here for a third visit, and I'm as happy as ever. I just don't see the draw of China. But don't take my word for it. If Taiwan has nothing to offer, why does China posture so strongly year after year that Taiwan should be part of mainland China? Yes, that's right. Taiwan: It's what China Should Be.

FYI: I have no professional interest in Taiwan (I am US citizen and a database administrator by trade) but every time I come here for a visit, I'm reminded again of how beautiful and welcoming this country is.

If you go to China (and you really should), don't be scared to eat anywhere. Since I was paid a local salary while I was there I was unable to "spend a weeks wages on one meal", I spent about 50 cents on each meal. Not only did I never get ill, I also ate very very well. Also eating with the chinese allowed me to see a bit more of real life in China, not the surface most tourists garze so shallowly. Also you'll find most the waiters, cooks and other customers more than willing to pose for a photo if you are anywhere of the beaten track, just make sure that if you promise to send them a copy, you really do. As for Philo Vivero's views, they make very little sense. Personally I would love to visit Taiwan, but to say don't go here, go somewhere else is short sighted and ridiculous. Does Taiwan have the Li River, The Yangtze, the Tibetan regions above Chengdu, Inner Mongolia, the Uighyr regions, The Great Wall, the Terracotta Warriors, Wuyi Mountain and all the myriad other places, no. Nick

Hi, Philo, >>China went through the Cultural Revolution a few years back, where they systematically destroyed everything of historical or cultural significance, and then killed anyone who had any sense of culture or history (ie: the history teachers). They changed their writing system to eliminate any historical significance of the characters.<< I don't know who your history teacher is... The Cultural Revolution was from 1966 to 1976. Yes, there were people killed, but they definitely didn't kill anyone who had any sense of culture or history. My history teacher was about 70 years old when I was in high school(around 1996). Also they didn't systematically destroyed everything of historical or cultural significance! Yuanmingyuan(a royal park) was looted and burnt down by anglo-french invaders. Some old city walls were destroied due to the city expansion. Even from Philip Greenspun's biased travel guide, you could find some evidence of un-destroied places/sights of historical or cultural significance! Some charactors have been simplified, because the government would like for un-literated people left by the last regime(Guo Min Dang) to be able to write and read easily. The grammar wasn't changed at all! Chinese literature through 5000-year history is still being taught in schools and universities. Any ancient poems that you learnt in Taiwan, I believe I have learnt in China.

Philo has a valid point about china's tradition is best kept in taiwan. Culture revolution has destroyed a lot of china's wonderful culture heritage. A lot of chinese people's old custom are still observed by people in taiwan but is very foreign to generations of chinese born in the "people's republic".

However, chinese culture tradition is enjoying a revival now since communism has gone bankrupt and people are again turing to old confucious teaching.

Yes, a lot of temple ,statue, precious art work was burned and ransacked by communist zealots during culture revolution. But what remains is still well worth visiting. Certainly there is no two thousand years old terracotta warriors years in taiwan.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. However, Mr. Greenspun's article offers almost no useful information whatsoever about photography in China. I wonder why this article was even posted. The notion of it is perplexing and beyond reason. Was it just for the sake of having something about China? It would be wise for someone else to contribute an alternative article to replace this one.

China is HUGE, ENORMOUS, GARGANTUAN. (Get the picture?). And the diversity of its geography, peoples, cultures, languages, climates, architectures, and histories are even more vast in scope. Mr. Greenspun has summed up all of China from the perspective of occasional ventures to tourist attractions outside of his 4 star hotel (mostly in Beijing) within the course of 3 weeks. What kind of photographs could one expect to take this way? As one previous commentary has advised, Mr. Greenspun ought to have gone to Disney World instead. However, I don't think there are many photographers out there who picked up the camera because they were inspired by Disney World. The next best thing would be to go to Taiwan. I have heard that you are likely have an easier time there. More people speak English, it has some worthwhile sights, you won't likely see poverty, and people are more accustomed to Westerners. But Taiwan is an island. It is no China. And yes, you will find many precious imperial artifacts taken/abducted out of mainland when the Guo Ming Tang fled in 1949. If you like spending your day at a museum, this might be worth it. However, if want to see the real China. There is no substitute.

Do the research. Plan ahead. The Let's Go guide offers a lot of usefule and detail travel information alternative to the banal tourist route. Have a sense of what you want to capture on your film or on media card. (For a "westerner", going to China is not the same as going to Canada, although even the latter is quite a challenge for some Americans.) Have some patience, take risks, keep an open mind. Isn't that basic to what good photography also? Since when was it about snapping away a few shots (in places where it is safe to do because everybody else is doing it, as Mr. Greenspun describes) and rushing back to your un"dirty" 4 star hotel?

Mr. Greenspun wrote somewhat helpful articles about equipment. His nude series wasn't bad either. But why isn't there more contributions from others? It seems from the responses that there are a number of people capable of doing more justice to this subject.

Finally, For those who compare China to the US and make erroneously gross generalizations like "China is not free", grow up and have a clue already. Read some history. That goes for China and US histories. Why do you think the communist won over the GMT, despite the fact the the GMT was incomparably better equipped through support by the US? Because they had won the support of the people over years of consistent allegiance to the poor. How much do you know about the history of slavery and racial discrimination in this country? Are you curious about what American Indians think about the US government? Yes, they still exist, and in larger numbers then one might think.

See my China Photo Gallery here.
My trip lasted 4 weeks traveling through Beijing,Kunming,Dali,Lijiang,Guilin,Yangshou,Longsheng,
Sanjiang, Zhaoxing,Zhangjiajie,Yichang and Hong-Kong.

In my site you'll also find a detailed travel dairy and useful tips for the independent traveler and keen photographer.

Hope you'll find it useful.

"Don't eat in a restaurant where dinner costs less than a week's wages for a Chinese."

Some of the comments on this page are really interesting and provide some good tips for getting good shots in China (without alerting mass attention). But this one is seriously exaggerated. Having spent a significant amount of time in China and eaten at some pretty rough places--including several eateries in remote villages that I would not recommend to the casual tourist--only once or twice have I splurged to spend such an amount on a meal. In the city I lived in (about 4 million people) a decent wage was 4 yuan an hour (just less than 50 US cents). Even if you wish to call it 3 yuan, multiply that by 7 hours a day for five days a week (though most laborers would work six or seven days a week) that's at LEAST 105 yuan, or about $12.

If you don't eat at Outback the entire time, you'll have a hard time finding a restaurant that will have pricey enough items to meet this advice. Most chinese restaurants will treat your stomachs just fine, so long as you don't buy something that has obviously been sitting around for a long time. I'm not totally sure of Beijing and Shanghai prices, but you can certainly get safe food for less than 20 yuan. And in some smaller cities, a liberal estimate would be around 5 yuan.

I know China's economy has grown a lot in the past couple years, so perhaps this factor made sense a few years back. As such perhaps it is time for photo.net to borrow from its many other users' experiences to update some of its travel pages.

For me, China was one of the most fascinating destinations I ever visited. The stark contrasts between the heritage of an ancient culture and a rapidly expanding modern economy are mind-boggling.
This, of course, provides many excellent photo opportunities, especially if one concentrates on all the small details. I never followed the above advice on food - and did not regret it. Many small restaurants offer excellent meals, although communication with a waiter may be a bit difficult.
I uploaded several hundred photos of China to my website - I feel that they can better communicate my experience than words. I'm sure I'll visit this great country again.
Laurenz

Zhouzhuan, near Shanghai, China

If all u want is snap shots or urban city and pictures of your girlfriend, by all means go anywhere. But if u want photo ops that says "China", then u have to go China. The landscape, culture, history is so vast and diverse that u have to sub divide it and see which area u are interested in. If u like urban and fear travelling to the remote areas, by all means go to big cities like Shanghai. This city is advance and I don't see how a westerner like u will feel out of place. Wonderful places with great photo ops like Zhouzhuan as shown in the picture above is just an hour away. U can't get this in Taiwan. One might mistaken that u have taken your Taiwan photos in Malaysia, or Singapore....

I am from China. I wonder that why China on the pictures look so ugly. When you left from China, just with ugly impression in mind? That is all what you saw in China?Why not show the beauty of China? Welcome to China, and wish you have a good travel, at least no so bad as the pictures show.

One of the difficulties for a western photographer in China is probably finding the locations. I speak fluent Mandarin (but read very little), and finding locations in Taiwan is a challenge (even if you have a name and a map, the maps are often not as useful as one would think and signs pointing to destinations can point you down the wrong road (of be missing in places so you miss your turn)). I am planning a trip to Shanghai in a year or two, and hope to get out of the city after a week and spend a couple of weeks in the countryside. I haven't yet figured out what or where I want to shoot, and I suspect that I will have to make a second trip back, basically using the first to figure out where I want to come back and shoot more later. Unfortunately for most people, that isn't an option. I just happen to live in Asia.

I am so happy to see so many people arguing for sooo long about China. He he. I've been living in China off and on for 10 years, my wife is Chinese and I'm fluent in the language. I just want to say that for me, there is no other country in the world that is as much a puzzle as this one is. Everything that has been said in the above message is true. Every opinion is true because they are all reactions that happened. As you read about people's experiences, their reactions and their opinions, you are also knowing something about the contradictions, the frustrations, the joys, the beauty, the ugliness, the wonder and the disappointment that are always present with this country. You don't have to be Chinese to experience these, and you don't have to be foreign. They are present for everyone regardless of cultural background, skin color, age, sex, economic level, etc. etc. I always encourage people to come to China, to discover the country as well as themselves. You will reconfirm your love for your own country, or your loathing for your homeland. You will experience every sensation as you move through this society. Maybe it could be said that if you only have negative experiences, then there is something wrong with yourself, and if you only have joyful experience, then this is also something to question seriously. As far as Photography is concerned, oppurtunities are limitless. From Western Sichuan's Ganzi Autonomous Region which rivals the US's Rocky Mountains/ Grand Canyon imagery to the Northwestern Muslim areas and the Silk Road, to the poverty of Rural Guangxi Pronvince and the Minorities of Yunnan Province, from the virgin forests of Hei Long Jiang province and the Karst Formations of the Guilin City area, from urban madness with its contrasts to quiet rural living...China is a visual experience waiting to be recorded. I carry a Pentax 67 with four lenses around in a Lowepro backpack and use my eyes to study the a very superficial China that is all that I can really say that I understand. The society, the economics, ideals and values of the people...don't try to make anything of it...just do like I do...use your eyes, record what you see and take home what you can...whatever that might be. I have a Gallery somewhere on this site with some images of Korea and China. It's under my name. If you guys are intersted in yet more China photos, they are there. Cheers! Matt Borengasser

i absolutely agree. I've been living in China for 5 years now, and i simply love it. The people are friendly, the food is cheap...well, the climate in Beijing can be challenging, the water and the air a bit dirty, but i feel good.=) A lot of my friends have strikingly different opinions of China, some saying it's awful, and others seeking ways to stay longer. I plan on taking more pictures,and enjoying "my China" .

Having just returned form 2 months travel in southern and southwest china I have to say it's been one of my most rewarding travel experiences by far, There is no shortage of breathtaking scenery (i'm from new zealand and we have some nice sights too) but the scale and diversity of the landscapes, towns, architechture, culture and especially food was amazing. People were genuinely friendly and outgoing, often times having people go out of there way to direct you to great places to take photos or just wanting to practice their english. Making an effort to learn some mandarin is highly advised and will lead to some memorable and often humorous experiences. The light at high altitude (western sichuan) can be very harsh so take some filters and yes it sure gets dusty so a blower brush etc is a good idea. Can't wait to go back!!

What a condescending and uninformative load of twaddle. It's clear that since he has been to Beijing, Mr Greenspun now feels justified to consider himself "well-travelled". Enough said.

I read this article when it first came out. I felt a bit turned off by Greenspun's attitude at the time. I think he was probably going through a hard time, what with the dotcom bubble and all. At any rate, it's this site's gathering point for any info/photos on China for good or worse.
So here is my first contribution: link. It's a photo.net presentation of B&W photos of Beijing, Xian, Sanya, and Shanghai during Oct 2004. Shot with Leica M7, 50mm f3.5 screwmount Elmar, and Noctilux on Tri-X.

I recently moved to China and it's wonderful.

The food is delightful. I eat in run down food stalls, sidewalk grills, dingy restaurants where you spit the bones on the floor, and I haven't once gotten sick. Definitely try spicy szechuan fish if you get the chance.

As for photography, don't get disappointed if you don't find old men with fu man chu's walking up crooked paths through mist-laden mountains. Personally I don't think that romantic vision ever really existed except in the pages of National Geographic. Maybe all those ramshackle buildings we find so photogenic have all been torn down, but in a way they signified poverty and in that sense I'm glad to see them gone.

Anyway a true, die-hard romantic would never go home empty-handed, even if surrounded by the neon lights of the new China. Try Delano's images (in the links section).

And I've got a few images on my website, http://www.derekau.net/portfolio/

Many of us agree the "guide to China" article has it's shortcomings. Why not add your comments and links to make it better???

Dancing the old and new...

Travel to China is not that terrible. After over 20 years development since the open-door policy adopted in 1979, things have been changed and improved a lot. In some areas, it is changing everyday! I am sure you will get bored if just stay in Sheraton when you visit Beijing, just because it is the first 5 star foreign hotel in Beijing buit in early 80s, it now has about 70 4-5 star hotels in Beijing. This will deeply influence everything around it. Since it is changing everyday, I am sure Mr.Greenspun will have a new impression on China .

"The Cantonese will eat anything with four legs except the table", I envy about Cantonese. I am from northern China. Cantonese is famous because of their food, because they know how to enjoy food, how to enjoy everything in the world. That saying does exist, it only means those genius Cantonese are good at cookings, just don't bite the tables when the food is not ready!

With 9 years travel experience in China, I can say you will sure have a lot of fun travelling in China, just do your home work as to anywhere, but no need to pack a case of bottled water before coming to China.

If you need more information you can contact me through my website,

Happy shooting!

Zhuang Mu

My personal website

China is government-oriented, and is always the country that the evil and the good is mixed-up, just like other countries in the world. I am from China, a remote countryside in Shaanxi province. For the purpose of work-life, I traveled many countries, both in developed and underdeveloped. In the view from my eyes, the government systems of China need much improvement because the systems is just like a spider net, and the promotion or the demotion is mostly depended on the relationship between these officials, not on the achievement what he/she did for the local citizens. In China, you must remember anytime, no Speech for the goverment!

I have travelled to quite a few places in China and I highly recommended those "World Heritage" places. http://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/cn

I have been to a few and they are all gorgeous. The China government has been doing a much better job at preserving those places in terms of pollution control, perservation and facilities that support tourism.

Some of the pictures from my trip to China.

http://www.vintnersgroup.com/China/index.html

Greenspun's aticle is totally out of date and should be taken off this website.

I have visited China three times as a tourist and plan to go again in September 2006. I love the place. It is very beautiful, the people are just great with an amazing sense of humour and are also very helpful. China's part of the Silk Road - which I visited in 2004 - is just amazing. Photography was no trouble anywhere - in fact, people loved having their picture taken with we 'big noses'and I loved taking them. The countryside is just wonderful but the cities are like cities everywhere - I like the country. Rhonda Martin

How can such a cynical person ever find beauty? his images testify to that fact...

Hey Guys, Can't believe this is photo.net. It kind of reads like CNN Crossfire. If anyone has any good pictures of the Silk Road and would like to talk about it, that would be great. I really want to photograph Uzebekistan, but a great deal of the photos I've seen of Central Asia are beautiful. I don't speak Turkic, Russian, or Farsi, so my ability to go off the beaten tourist path is limited. Has anyone taken any photography tours out there. Are there any particularly wonderful spots one would recommend? Is that are environmentally friendly to foreigners?

Thanks for any support you can give, Mike

Well, Since there is no Central Asia spot, may as well post here. Here is a great website on photos from Central Asia. Enjoy to those wondering about this region.

http://www.herwigphoto.com/

Later, Mike

A nation with such an enormous population as china, everything is limited, including water. Water, especially clean water is very precious in china. In areas where there is lack of water, there is reason to be cautious in what you eat. However, during my travels throughout china, I had eaten in many makeshift restaurants and food stalls where their water supply was no more than 2 buckets of water daily. I have not been sick due to the food. So don't be paranoid, otherwise you may be missing out the food of your lifetime.

Regarding the statement:"China is not a clean country. China is not an efficient country. China is not a free country..." It is obviously irresponsible as well as not intellectual. This is the sort of naivete that one readily finds in capitalist advertising culture where accuracy is sacrifice for drama. It is the type of language that nations use to rally for war. It is amusing that such a simplistic piece can be used as an introduction to china.

For the photographer, there is no such thing as "China". The differences between areas are great, the country is united only by the Chinese writing. If someone is interested in a few photos of one are called Anhui province (in central to western China), here is the link: http://www.photo.net/photos/zhua.

Terence Lee: "Taiwan province of China" No, Taiwan is not a province of China since 1895, When Japanese officially surrendered the Island in 1952, it became in the eyes of international laws (and remains) "Terra nulla". Taiwan may become a Chinese province in the future or may not. It's important to say this, since people visiting China may think their visa should allow them to visit Taiwan as well... Taiwan has its own government, laws, currency, culture... 13% of the population only could claim to be Han Chinese.

Taiwan is a province of China.

I met a Chinese guy who asked me "Why do foreigners only take pictures of the poor people and minorities and villages? Why not show the real people who go to work and have homes and cars?"

Why foreigners

Not everyone.

Just look at the current issue of National Geographic about China Rising. These so called foreigners were mostly professionals who hired locals to show them where the poorest of the poor lived. These professionals are mostly employed by major US news organizations such as the New York Times which has a political agenda of reporting everything negative about China.

Ordinary visitors have limited chance of photograph the poor or the negative sides of a country such as China. Amazingly, the writer of this article/guide had managed to seize every chance he got to photogragh and show some of the uglier sides of his observation from what I figure as a casual tourist to this country.

It is because unfortunately people had been brained washed and had preconceived notion of this huge, old but at the sametime the fastest changing country in the world today.

To Kin Yu Probably not the best place here to debate about Taiwan, but not the place to misinform people either. Please try to find informations about the history of Taiwan, and the meaning of "Province". Probably difficult if you're located in China...

China is a fascinating place. I was there in May 2006 having traveled by train from the UK. You can see some photos at http://www.trans-siberian-railway.co.uk

Great photos from China. I am fascinated to see China, it's people, culture.

Many Germany tourists have traveled alone Silk Road by driving himself since 1980's. Some even drove 4000KM crossing the country, from XingJiang to Beijing. A free country is waiting for everyone, for photo shooting, for 2008 Olympic!

"Don't eat in a restaurant where dinner costs less than a week's wages for a Chinese." Are you serious? With that attitude you'll miss out on the real joys of travelling to a country like China, and will most certainly miss out on the best food. The cheap restaurants packed out with locals have the freshest ingredients and highest turnover, overpriced tourist restaurants that are half empty are far more likely to give you food poisoning.

I am planning on going to China for 3 months and of course turned to photo.net for some good info on where to visit to make the most of my visit. Then I read Greenspun's post and thought, man, if this is the best photo.net can offer, I'm wasting my time. "Don't eat in a restaurant where dinner costs less than a week's wages for a Chinese."??? I was in Beijing last year and the best tasting (and perfectly safe) food I had was where the locals ate.

All I can say is, thank you to all my fellow photo.net users for posting comments that actually had some value. Can someone take down this post dating back to 2000? It's a bit embarrassing.